# Is mind control ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338 "2014-07-04T11:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/21 "2014-07-05T06:32:41Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Why? If you have not harmed them and they are not aware of being compelled, how is it a violation? Or does the abrogation of their will in itself put any such act completely beyond the pale, no matter the circumstances? Consider Rohypnol. If I drop a little something-something in your drink, which is physically harmless but makes you more pliable to the notion of having hot monkey sex with me (while still letting you think it’s 100% your decision), and you are not aware that you have been drugged, how is it a violation ? Because it bloody well is. The _only_ thing an individual has that is truly and ever their own is their will and mind. That is the very last inch that you can not enslave, imprison or restrain. Take that away, and what is left of a human being ? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] It would be ethical with their consent. An example that gets mentioned in fiction on occasion would be giving someone who wants to quit using an addictive drug a counter-compulsion to _not_ use the drug. [/QUOTE] Weeell, even that might not be exactly kosher. I’ve watched _A Clockwork Orange_, you see :p. Even absent the whole abject torture aspect of Alex’s “therapy”, the end product - that is, a dry-heaving incapacitated Alex whenever he even thinks about sex or violence - is not a pretty sight. ---
**Author:** ![janeleonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea5d25/32.png) [@janeleonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/janeleonard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/22 "2014-07-05T09:18:00Z")
Mind controlling whether it is ethical or unethical relies with the situation and the scenario with which it is practiced. You can save a person with it that seems to be ethical and you can even mislead a person with it that is said to be unethical. It is left with the choice of the person who does it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/23 "2014-07-05T20:30:32Z")
Not sure I’d call mind control “ethical,” but it could certainly be \*beneficial \*to society as a whole. i.e., making criminals donate money to charity, preventing genocide, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/24 "2014-07-05T21:22:26Z")
The Doc Savage model of rehabilitative mental surgery, so that criminals are cured of criminality. The good thing is that, for a lot of criminals, it would be voluntary. It might also provide a cure for mental illnesses. (Not saying that criminality is a mental illness…and not saying it ain’t.) Okay, some die-hards would refuse it. Well, okay. We’ll keep maintaining prisons for them, but, over time, society will begin to resent the expense. If the process to reform bad guys actually seems to work, and if there aren’t any side-effects, then, in the course of a few decades, it will probably become mandatory. The answer to the question “is it ethical” would change, over time, as the definition of “ethical” adapted to the new environment. At some point, society would (likely) decide that it was unethical not to reform the minds of criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/25 "2014-07-05T22:33:58Z")
In cases of self-defense, as someone already pointed out. Like someone pointed out, if someone’s about to rape you, or whatever, you can use mind control to stop them. Think Jedi Mind Trick. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/26 "2014-07-06T04:26:20Z")
As bright as this group is I am very surprised that the discussion hasn’t gotten into the most common and obvious forms of mind control. ``` " When we fall in love we fall in love with the way we feel about ourselves when we are with that other person" The same dynamic that drives this also drives most every other kind of relationship we have in life. Preachers have this down to a science, con artists, jigalos and gold digging women have leaned this. All someone has to do is generate a feeling in us that stimulates a feel good drug, we always want more. No different than narcotics. Political parties use it effectively as well. What is right or wrong in life matters less than how you feel about yourself for supporting something or being a part of something. It's all mind control. ``` ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/27 "2014-07-06T04:30:46Z")
the RIAA wasn’t too worried about mixed tapes either, until the advent of mp3 and fast, internet access. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/28 "2014-07-06T04:48:05Z")
> [@janeleonard](#): > > Mind controlling whether it is ethical or unethical relies with the situation and the scenario with which it is practiced. You can save a person with it that seems to be ethical and you can even mislead a person with it that is said to be unethical. It is left with the choice of the person who does it. Aren’t you always misleading a person by mind control? I mean if you could lead a person to a decision all it would take is talking. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/29 "2014-07-06T05:51:03Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > As bright as this group is I am very surprised that the discussion hasn’t gotten into the most common and obvious forms of mind control. > > . . . Preachers have this down to a science, con artists, jigalos and gold digging women have leaned this. > > . . . Political parties use it effectively as well. What is right or wrong in life matters less than how you feel about yourself for supporting something or being a part of something. It’s all mind control. > [@Sitnam](#): > > Aren’t you always misleading a person by mind control? I mean if you could lead a person to a decision all it would take is talking. These are both valid points, but a little to one side of the ideas in the OP. Still, these are existent forms of mind control, and are very much at the center of the issue of “freedom of speech.” Like most free speech issues, any “cure” for misuse of the freedom is probably worse than the misuse itself. The “morality” of free speech pretty much lies in this default stance. Whom would you trust with the power to control it, regulate it, or abridge it? It’s scary enough that we can be sued for slander. ([Look at that terrifying case in Britain where the guy went through hell, just for making true criticisms of chiropractic!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh#Chiropractic_lawsuit)) So, yeah, political parties – and cults – practice a kind of mind control that’s pretty damn scary. But other than our speaking out in open criticism…what can we do? Worse, what if the people uttering such speech believe it to be true? Where is the morality, then? If I defraud you by lying to you about buying shares in my perpetual motion machine, that’s absolutely immoral. If someone is an idiot anti-vaccinator, and believes that vaccinations cause horrible diseases, he’s still immoral in what he says on the subject, because the truth is within his reach, and it’s only his laziness that keeps him from learning it. “Reckless disregard for the truth” is immoral. But what about political speech? Someone can legitimately believe that higher or lower tax rates would be harmful to the nation’s economy. Both views can’t be true. But is it immoral for a partisan politician to speak in favor of his tax policy? And religious speech is even fuzzier. Is it immoral for the nice Catholic Priest to talk about Jesus and Mary and Heaven and Hell? ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/30 "2014-07-06T07:52:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think this kind of relates to the argument about free will a few weeks ago. If we are truly at the whims of our unconscious minds, which are at the whims of internal physiochemical process interacting with the external environment, then our minds are already being “controlled”. I don’t know if I press a certain button because I want to or because I have a certain gene that predisposes me to pressing that button. And I can never know. > > But I think there is a difference between you controlling my mind versus that kind of mind control. If I do something wrong under my own volition, I can still accept responsibility for it. For instance, even if I kill someone in a fit of rage, I should be punished for it despite the fact that I was “out of control”. The act of punishment will perhaps teach me the importance of self-control, so that the next time I let my anger get away from me, maybe I will pause and reflect on past mistakes. But it really wouldn’t be my fault if you made me kill someone. And what’s worse, I wouldn’t know this. So while in prison, I’d be forcing myself to learn a lesson that I wouldn’t need to learn. > > As far as doing good goes, it’s a trickier ethical dilemma. But I guess one argument against controlling someone’s mind for good is that “good” is entirely subjective and depends on an individual’s morals. You may think it’s good to help rescue a cat stuck in a tree. But the guy you “force” to climb the tree may beg to differ. He may think that risking his own life for the life of a furry mammal is ridiculous. You may think giving money to a homeless person is good. The woman you “force” to donate to a panhandler may have wanted to spend that money another way–perhaps for a do-good project that she actually cared about. Broadly speaking, I think this is right. The premise of the OP and similarly minded posts is that we have free will or something close enough to count. [I agree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=618145). If we’re wrong on this, mind control deprives us of nothing of importance. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/31 "2014-07-06T11:48:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > These are both valid points, but a little to one side of the ideas in the OP. Still, these are existent forms of mind control, and are very much at the center of the issue of “freedom of speech.” Like most free speech issues, any “cure” for misuse of the freedom is probably worse than the misuse itself. > > The “morality” of free speech pretty much lies in this default stance. Whom would you trust with the power to control it, regulate it, or abridge it? It’s scary enough that we can be sued for slander. ([Look at that terrifying case in Britain where the guy went through hell, just for making true criticisms of chiropractic!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh#Chiropractic_lawsuit)) > > So, yeah, political parties – and cults – practice a kind of mind control that’s pretty damn scary. But other than our speaking out in open criticism…what can we do? Worse, what if the people uttering such speech believe it to be true? Where is the morality, then? > > If I defraud you by lying to you about buying shares in my perpetual motion machine, that’s absolutely immoral. > > If someone is an idiot anti-vaccinator, and believes that vaccinations cause horrible diseases, he’s still immoral in what he says on the subject, because the truth is within his reach, and it’s only his laziness that keeps him from learning it. “Reckless disregard for the truth” is immoral. > > But what about political speech? Someone can legitimately believe that higher or lower tax rates would be harmful to the nation’s economy. Both views can’t be true. But is it immoral for a partisan politician to speak in favor of his tax policy? > > And religious speech is even fuzzier. Is it immoral for the nice Catholic Priest to talk about Jesus and Mary and Heaven and Hell? Those are all good points, I don’t think we need laws to regulate powerful speakers who know how to tap into peoples weaknesses as much as we need more education and awareness on how this occurs, and how to recognze when it is happening to us. Some of our ancient cultural practices were put in place as defences against our own weaknesses. A very powerful, well timed sexual experience can leave an inexperienced person seeking a repeat of that same experience for years after the actual experience. The same is true for social experiences where one who is not normally accepted suddenly finds himself loved and cherished as with cults and even clubs sometimes. We just need to be aware of the symproms and causes I believe. It might help. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/32 "2014-07-06T11:50:11Z")
Hmm… If a ‘perfect being’ intentionally [hardened Pharoah’s heart](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+9%3A12%2CExodus+10%3A1%2CExodus+10%3A20%2CExodus+10%3A27%2CExodus+14%3A8&version=NASB) would you say that being wasn’t acting ethically? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/33 "2014-07-10T19:24:11Z")
I knew Bran Stark was an unethical bastard! ---
**Author:** ![common\_good](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@common\_good](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/common_good)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/34 "2014-07-10T20:54:09Z")
If it was ethical, Fox News would not exist and propoganda would be called truth, as in the case of Pravda. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/35 "2014-07-10T21:16:18Z")
I must admit, the ethics of it might well start to nag at me at some point several years after my coronation . . . ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/36 "2014-07-10T23:32:22Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > the RIAA wasn’t too worried about mixed tapes either, until the advent of mp3 and fast, internet access. They absolutely were. In the 80s, the Dead Kennedys put out a tape with the second side blank so you could record your favorite songs from the radio, in protest against the RIAA’s stance against cassettes. And mind control is practiced extensively by marketers, advertisers, police, politicians and soldiers every day. It is by no means science fiction. And yes, it is highly unethical and should be outlawed. Advertising especially, because it is practiced indiscriminately against an innocent and unsuspecting populace. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/37 "2014-07-10T23:35:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And mind control is practiced extensively by marketers, advertisers, police, politicians and soldiers every day. It is by no means science fiction. And yes, it is highly unethical and should be outlawed. Advertising especially, because it is practiced indiscriminately against an innocent and unsuspecting populace. That’s not mind **control**. What you’re referring to is mere **persuasion**. Mind control means something far stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/38 "2014-07-10T23:37:44Z")
I can see an advertisement for coffee and still say no. Mind control would be if someone controlled my brain to buy the coffee in a way that I had no way of resisting and was utterly powerless. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/39 "2014-07-11T00:01:52Z")
Fine line between mind control and influence. Many mind control tecniques use everyday emotional responses such as acceptance, rejection, validation, power etc. Things we are lacking in are offered to us by religions, political groups, etc. They offer us the good feeling natural dopes our body responds to and in turn we are loyal. To admit this is to admit weakness and it is pretty much universally rejected. If you want to be a part of the elite, intelligent, progressive cool group you have to buy the whole program! ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338/40 "2014-07-11T02:23:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s not mind **control**. What you’re referring to is mere **persuasion**. Mind control means something far stronger. **Manipulation** is the term I would use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mind-control-ethical/692338.md?page=3)