# Is modern civilization a mistake? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978 "2017-06-03T03:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/262 "2017-07-03T13:03:57Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > … It seems like she makes a generalization about what humans should do based on her interactions with one tribe. … I completely agree. The argument that what humans “should do” is what Paleolithic people did (because they define Paleolithic as “natural” and “natural” is automatically “better”) is severely specious and very mistaken as it is; to extrapolate from an experience with a single tribe in a two to three year period to what was normative throughout Paleolithic history in all of the variety of circumstances in which humans have lived and become adapted to? That is simply stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/263 "2017-07-05T03:23:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I completely agree. > > The argument that what humans “should do” is what Paleolithic people did (because they define Paleolithic as “natural” and “natural” is automatically “better”) is severely specious and very mistaken as it is; to extrapolate from an experience with a single tribe in a two to three year period to what was normative throughout Paleolithic history in all of the variety of circumstances in which humans have lived and become adapted to? That is simply stupid. But it does make for a nice story. I also noticed that Morris guys uses a lot of freudian psychology in his work, which explains why that other guy i referenced mention some tear with a primal unity between mother and child and that it was well documented. I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/264 "2017-07-08T01:30:06Z")
“Modern civilization” isn’t a mistake, it’s a disaster. What a stupid miracle that people can live in it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/265 "2017-07-08T01:34:05Z")
It’s so terribly bad for us, that we’ve multiplied our numbers several million times over and above the population levels we had for 99.99% of our evolution. Yes, sir, it’s a miracle that seven billion of us can live in this deadly circumstances. (“In a pig’s eye!”) ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/266 "2017-07-12T18:51:26Z")
Six (6) pages bitching about civilization? I should think you’d all be much better off eschewing the internet, banging drums and sending smoke signals to express your displeasure. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/267 "2017-08-23T16:52:43Z")
“Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we’re nearing collapse” > [@](#): > > Four decades after the book was published, Limit to Growth’s forecasts have been vindicated by new Australian research. Expect the early stages of global collapse to start appearing soon > **[Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we're nearing collapse | Cathy...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse)** > > Graham Turner and Cathy Alexander: Four decades after the book was published, Limit to Growth’s forecasts have been vindicated by new Australian research. Expect the early stages of global collapse to start appearing soon ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/268 "2017-08-23T19:00:36Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > “Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we’re nearing collapse” > > [Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we're nearing collapse | Graham Turner and Cathy Alexander | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse) I’m sure most 'dopers are already aware of the debunking of Limit to Growth, but figured I’d put in [this](http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2014/05/utter-failure-of-limits-to-growth-and-club-of-rome-debunking-neo-malthusians-2/) one just for the fun of it. It’s just a blog…there are other ones (just Google 'debunking the book Limit to Growth…I think even HuffPo did an article on it). > [@](#): > > The best-known doomsday forecast in the last few decades was The Limits to Growth. It sold an astounding 9 million copies in 29 languages. But that book has been so thoroughly and universally criticized as neither valid nor scientific that it is not worthwhile to devote time or space to refuting its every detail. Even more damning, just four years after publication it was disavowed by its sponsors, the Club of Rome. The Club said that the conclusions of that first report are not correct and that they purposely misled the public in order to “awaken” public concern. > > With respect to minerals, Dennis Meadows (of Limits to Growth) predictably went wrong by using the known-reserves concept. For example, he estimated the world supply of aluminum to be exhausted in a maximum of 49 years. But aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth’s crust, and the chance of its supply becoming an economic problem is nil. (Meadows also made the error of counting only high-grade bauxite, while lower grades are found in much greater abundance). The price history of aluminum in Figure 2-2 shows how aluminum has become vastly more available rather than more scarce since its early development in the 19th century. And in the two decades since Meadows wrote, the price has continued to fall, a sure sign that the trend is toward lesser rather than greater scarcity. Figure 2-3 [Prices of aluminum, and early ones from Madigan booklet] > > The complete failure of the prophecies of Limits to Growth, and even the repudiation by its sponsor, have had little visible effect on the thinking of those who made the false prophecies. > [@](#): > > Everyone “knows” that resources are finite. A prominent example is the Limits to Growth group, who open the preface to their 1974 book as follows. > > Most people acknowledge that the earth is finite…. Policy makers generally assume that growth will provide them tomorrow with the resources required to deal with today’s problems. Recently, however, concern about the consequences of population growth, increased environmental pollution, and the depletion of fossil fuels has cast doubt upon the belief that continuous growth is either possible or a panacea. > > (Note the rhetorical device embedded in the term “acknowledge” in the first sentence of the quotation. It suggests that the statement is a fact, and that anyone who does not “acknowledge” it is simply refusing to accept or admit it.) > > From the Limits to Growth team again, this time on food: “The world model is based on the fundamental assumption that there is an upper limit to the total amount of food that can be produced annually by the world’s agricultural system.” At any rate, feel free to read the whole article. Basically, this is Ralfy’s entire schtick and the basis of all his crazy ideas on Peak Oil and the failure (any time now) of the capitalist system. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/269 "2019-12-24T20:08:53Z")
I know this has been around for a long time but the specter of “ancient man was better than us” reared it’s ugly head for me again today. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/270 "2019-12-24T20:35:47Z")
Sad to hear that your specters are rearing. I missed this one the first time around. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > [Amazon.com](https://www.amazon.com/Story-Human-Body-Evolution-Disease/dp/030774180X) > > This book says that the gifts given by civilization is the result of such things. Reading brought down eyesight, shoes increased the issues with skeletal systems. It says we evolved to travel long distances and run while gathering. Even our diet isn’t what we evolved for as it stands. Don’t forget that chairs allow our tendons to shift so that squatting for hours becomes uncomfortable or impossible. Eating utensils have shifted our bite. In pre-utensil humans, the incisors and molars meet in one even line. Now that we’re not biting and tearing through tough hunks of food, our incisors overlap. Personally, I prefer indoor plumbing, including being able to flush. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/271 "2019-12-24T21:50:20Z")
Yeah, I’m thinking a contentless bump isn’t necessary. I’ll just close this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978.md?page=13)