# Is modern civilization a mistake? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978 "2017-06-03T03:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/21 "2017-06-03T14:07:43Z")
Am I correct in understanding that the OP’s cite is the Unabomber? Oy… ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/22 "2017-06-03T14:17:23Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Yeah, I wasn’t satisfied with my cite, but it was the best I could find with the minimum of effort. 😛 > > But seriously, I would like to know the real answer myself. If you have any other cites, please do share them. I think I also saw that “100 day” reference in a book on medieval history I read, but my library is packed away in boxes at the moment, sorry. Wiki [lists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Roman_Calendar) the General Roman Calendar, and scanning through it, I counted 24 non-Sundays\* with the “feast” tag. No idea how this relates to actual medieval practice. There also might be celebrations for weddings, I would imagine. > > \*There are some feast days specifically set aside for Sundays. Moreover, I would assume that on any given year, some of the feast days would happen to fall on Sundays, anyway. I had intended to write a more detailed reply previously but I had to run. If I miss out when the drug store opens they sell out of Diet Pepsi and I become a very unhappy BeepKillBeep. 🙂 The work day for the town laborer in the middle ages was the from sunrise to sunset. The bell would toll in the morning, and then toll at sunset. Then, yes, the laborer was free to pursue leisure activities. This was a direct descendant of the rural day and so pretty much how the rural farmer worked as well. The very idea of extra leisure time would have sounded very odd to these people. In Le Goff’s book below, he talks about how this was period where time was transitioning from the belonging to God to belonging to man as man started to schedule and regulate it. This lead directly into the period where man invented the clock and the transition was complete. In any case, you can probably see how the idea of wasting the time of God might be culturally taboo. Also, some of these feasts days (holidays) were really market days. So the farmers would bring product to market and sell their excess and buy what they needed. Then they would celebrate at night. So it isn’t quite the same was as we think of a holiday today. Sure, you’re not toiling on the farm and so this probably felt like a “day off” but really, they were working. [1] Le Goff, J. (1982). Time, work, and culture in the Middle Ages. University of Chicago Press. [2] Blainey, G. (2003). A short history of the world. Ivan R. Dee. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/23 "2017-06-03T14:22:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Am I correct in understanding that the OP’s cite is the Unabomber? Oy… Well, in previous threads he cited Charles Manson. So… yeah… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/24 "2017-06-03T15:55:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Am I correct in understanding that the OP’s cite is the Unabomber? Oy… Yup…that’s why I said he was and is a nut. I don’t think that’s going to phase the OP, however. 😛 [QUOTE=kambuckta] Says kambuckta, sitting on her comfy lounge in a heated room (that I didn’t need to find wood for), connected to the world via a TV AND a computer, and about to cook some pork for dinner on a GAS stove (and I didn’t need to hunt down the pig in the forest either). Bonus is that I didn’t need to bash a rug to smithereens either when I cleaned today [/QUOTE] And this underscores the irony of the OP…the OP is sitting in a home with electricity somewhere connected to a world wide internet where he can ask these sorts of questions to people all over the Earth while he pines for a simple and good, wholesome life like our ancestors lived in ye olden dayz, while using Teddy boy as his information source. He’s probably going to the fridge right now to make a sandwich and grab a cold soda so he can fortify himself to start replying back how we are all wrong. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/25 "2017-06-03T16:01:48Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Environmental issues and the additional pressures and strains that modern life brings, not to mention our great dependence on technology. We seem to idle our time with non productive work (Like anything that doesn’t contribute directly to survival). We seem to think that more tech will just solve our issues but will it? Was it mistake to advance this far? > > [http://chronicle.com/article/The-Unabombers-Pen-Pal/131892/](http://chronicle.com/article/The-Unabombers-Pen-Pal/131892/) > > The link makes some mention of it. Here is one of the comments on the matter: > > "You should do some more research. I think you’ll find that most of the beliefs about history you express in this comment are actually myths created to defend industrial civilization from valid critiques. > > For example, medieval peasants had more freedom and autonomy in their day-to-day life than modern office workers. They set their own hours and since their diet was almost entirely vegetarian they were mostly pretty healthy, saving for absolutely atrocious oral hygiene. By contrast, the early industrial revolution was probably the worst time to be a human being. Read some descriptions of factory towns circa the turn of the 20th century. The Jungle is a fine example. 16 hour workdays, 6 day weeks, no benefits and no provisions for worker safety. Few provisions for sanitation. Until the labor movement, the industrial revolution made life for the majority of human beings subject to it much worse. > > So called “primitive” hunter-gatherer/gardener societies with very limited contact with modern civilization (sometimes intentional, as in the case of some sea nomads) are almost always the happiest groups of people despite a state of existence that doesn’t even qualify as “poverty.” Living in the moment as part of a community of human beings, hunting when you’re hungry and doing what you want otherwise is apparently much more fulfilling to the human organism than existing as an alienated individual relating to life mostly through bureaucratic machinery. > > As far as education and social mobility go, try comparing Tocqueville’s account of American life in the 19th century to conditions in the 20th century. Before the modern state bureaucracy, much of it a legacy of the New Deal, Americans had more social mobility and education, despite not being compulsory and not lasting 12 years, was more successful. The vocabularies of 14 year olds in the 19th century were better than many of today’s college grads. Many high school grads can’t even read. > > Technology solving problems. Vacuum cleaners are supposed to be time and labor saving devices. But are they? Before vacuum cleaners, people cleaned rugs by taking them outside and beating them with a stick. This takes less time than vacuuming. And since vacuum cleaners are usually very poorly constructed, they actually recirculate more dust and dirt than they pick up. So this time and labor saving device costs us more time and labor than its predecessor AND lowers the quality of the air in the home. So why do people use them at all? At first, effective marketing. And that had the effect of making vacuum cleaning the default means of cleaning carpets for the next generation. > > You’re part of that next generation in a more general sense. Your life is so interwoven with technology that you can’t see clearly how the technology uses you as much as you use it. This is exactly why Kaczynski’s critiques of technology are important. You can’t see the whale when you’re in its belly. I don’t think Kaczynski’s revolution is possible; you can’t go back again. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be honest with ourselves about what we’ve lost." The issue isn’t society or technology but our inability to adequately adapt to the environment they have left us in. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/26 "2017-06-03T23:03:22Z")
And be without rock music?! Nah, I’d rather stay complacent. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/27 "2017-06-03T23:07:03Z")
If modern civilization is a mistake, the OP should stop posting on the Internet right now. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/28 "2017-06-04T01:22:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yup…that’s why I said he was and is a nut. I don’t think that’s going to phase the OP, however. 😛 … Theodore Kaczynski was and is a very disturbed individual ([this RadioLab](http://www.radiolab.org/story/91722-be-careful-what-you-plan-for/) is informative about what might have contributed to that state and worth a listen) but at least he was no dummy. FWIW. Still the whole way of looking at the way humanity has developed as potentially “a mistake” is a bit naive as it implicitly suggests that there is some conscious decision that was made. It is much more like evolution than that. The cultural idea (“meme”) that works to help a group either produce more members (either by increased survival to next generations or by accreting other groups) or that by way of its advantages spreads between groups, _is_ the more “fit” idea. If the idea has those advantages and a group chooses to not take the idea on while others do then the odds are that group will soon be vastly outnumbered and a culture very quickly will flirt with extinction. Now “[the selfish meme](http://www.theselfishmeme.co.uk/)” framework still lacks the mathematical rigor of population genetics and I suspect even the best serious academicians could get bogged down fast as the cultural ideas also impact genetic evolution in complex nonlinear manners with memes able to act faster than genes do … but the fact remains that ignoring a meme that would give your group an advantage (or at least avoid a disadvantage) would be choice with consistently poor fitness results. There was no option for humanity to not develop technologies. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/29 "2017-06-04T01:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Theodore Kaczynski was and is a very disturbed individual (this RadioLab is informative about what might have contributed to that state and worth a listen) but at least he was no dummy. FWIW. [/QUOTE] Oh, I agree…I said he was a nut, not stupid or dumb. I also said he was wrong, and I stick by that as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/30 "2017-06-04T02:34:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Theodore Kaczynski was and is a very disturbed individual ([this RadioLab](http://www.radiolab.org/story/91722-be-careful-what-you-plan-for/) is informative about what might have contributed to that state and worth a listen) but at least he was no dummy. FWIW. People can be really smart in some areas and complete dummies in other areas. ---
**Author:** ![race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/race_to_the_bottom)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/31 "2017-06-04T06:16:28Z")
What we see as civilization in the West is the culmination of a long historical process. The historical era in which we live is the [Era of Imperialism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch03.htm). I know, this makes no sense to most people, but basically industrial capitalism began to become finance capitalism in the latter part of the 19th/early 20th century. Finance capital became dominant, but finance is extractive, producing nothing. It differs fundamentally from profit, and in many ways resembles feudalism. It is decaying capitalism. The great crisis of 2008 has pretty much finished the system of capitalism. It cannot get its motor started again. Finance sucks all the energy out of the system. This is why the civilization appears to be on the skids. It was the same when feudalism was moribund before the capitalist revolution put an end to the rule of the aristocracy. So we limp along getting nowhere. Look at China. China calls its system “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics”. It is roaring. No one can deny this. Even Trump sees it. We should learn from China. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/32 "2017-06-04T06:52:20Z")
> [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](#): > > What we see as civilization in the West is the culmination of a long historical process. The historical era in which we live is the [Era of Imperialism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch03.htm). I know, this makes no sense to most people, but basically industrial capitalism began to become finance capitalism in the latter part of the 19th/early 20th century. Finance capital became dominant, but finance is extractive, producing nothing. It differs fundamentally from profit, and in many ways resembles feudalism. It is decaying capitalism. The great crisis of 2008 has pretty much finished the system of capitalism. It cannot get its motor started again. Finance sucks all the energy out of the system. This is why the civilization appears to be on the skids. It was the same when feudalism was moribund before the capitalist revolution put an end to the rule of the aristocracy. So we limp along getting nowhere. Look at China. China calls its system “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics”. It is roaring. No one can deny this. Even Trump sees it. We should learn from China. I’ve looked at China. Serious question here…what do you think we should learn from them? From my perspective, China’s system sucks pretty hard. Their economy has been pretty flat (even if you go by the official CCP numbers, which are pretty much BS), their environmental damage is staggering, the levels of corruption are breath taking. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/33 "2017-06-04T11:42:47Z")
**XT** and **John Mace** - agreed … it was a more a thought in comparison to the last person of infamy **Machinaforce** was looking to for possible wisdom. I’m still not comprehending why our op seems to preferentially look to deranged killers for intellectual insights. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/34 "2017-06-04T12:05:09Z")
> [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](#): > > What we see as civilization in the West is the culmination of a long historical process. … I think everyone at every time has viewed where civilization is at that moment as “the culmination of a long historical process” … as the history of the world’s civilizations keep on limping along. In any case China is most certainly part of modern civilization. Comparing and contrasting the last several decades to most recent years economic and well-being arcs of China and America, how the finance sector in America contrasts with the credit load as applied by Chinese central planners and the elite extremely wealthy owners of vast capital within China, what contributed to China’s rapid economic growth phase and why it has relatively sputtered, etc., could be an interesting discussion … but not much to do with a claim about how horrible modern life is in comparison with idyllic pasts and how not stopping the train (so to speak) at some other point of humanity’s path was a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/35 "2017-06-04T12:56:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’m still not comprehending why our op seems to preferentially look to deranged killers for intellectual insights. Domestic radicalization? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/36 "2017-06-04T13:11:36Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > Modern civilization is not a mistake. > > How do I know? > > Mr. Machinaforce asked whether civilization is a mistake so obviously it isn’t. That’s enough of the personal cracks, please. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/37 "2017-06-04T13:15:24Z")
Is it too stupid to qualify as civilization? LOL Half-a-century after the Moon landing and we are supposed to get excited about useless variations in automobiles every year? With lower population and the elimination of consumerism it could be pretty nice, but we will probably have to have a serious crash for many people to see how ridiculous things are. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/38 "2017-06-04T13:49:07Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > … > Also, some of these feasts days (holidays) were really market days. So the farmers would bring product to market and sell their excess and buy what they needed. Then they would celebrate at night. So it isn’t quite the same was as we think of a holiday today. Sure, you’re not toiling on the farm and so this probably felt like a “day off” but really, they were working. > … You mean like black Friday and Memorial day sales? I’d say we still do this. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/39 "2017-06-04T14:30:08Z")
OP, I invite you to follow your own advice and join an Amish convent, or an isolated village in Africa or the Amazon, or any number of other societies that don’t run off modern society. I personally wouldn’t. I like the knowledge that I’m not going to suffer and die from freakin’ Chagas Disease or some horribly unnecessary treatable disease like that. I like the knowledge that most of my children will survive to sexual maturity. I like being able to _see_ - thanks, eyeglasses. I enjoy that, when I go to the bathroom, it’s clean, comfortable, doesn’t smell completely awful, and has implements available for wiping. I enjoy just about everything about indoor plumbing, honestly, and I like that I know that if I need a drink, it’s right nearby and probably not going to give me dysentery or cholera. The advantages of modern civilization are so universal and so _clear_ that we never even think about them. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978/40 "2017-06-04T14:48:43Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > OP, I invite you to follow your own advice and join an Amish convent, or an isolated village in Africa or the Amazon, or any number of other societies that don’t run off modern society. I personally wouldn’t. I like the knowledge that I’m not going to suffer and die from freakin’ Chagas Disease or some horribly unnecessary treatable disease like that. I like the knowledge that most of my children will survive to sexual maturity. I like being able to _see_ - thanks, eyeglasses. I enjoy that, when I go to the bathroom, it’s clean, comfortable, doesn’t smell completely awful, and has implements available for wiping. I enjoy just about everything about indoor plumbing, honestly, and I like that I know that if I need a drink, it’s right nearby and probably not going to give me dysentery or cholera. > > The advantages of modern civilization are so universal and so _clear_ that we never even think about them. All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, eyeglasses, a fresh water system, and public health, what has modern civilization ever done for us? - with apologies to Monty Python [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-modern-civilization-a-mistake/787978.md?page=3)