# Is Mormonism false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581 "2008-01-15T05:25:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/1 "2008-01-15T05:25:53Z")
The linked Wikipedia entry goes through some of the criticism of Mormonism. Including: > [@](#): > > [T]he Book of Mormon narrative do not agree with modern archaeology and point out that archaeologists and anthropologists view the Book of Mormon as a work of fiction.[6][7] The Book of Mormon contains an account of peoples who, in succeeding groups between 2200 BC and 600 BC, traveled from the Middle East and settled in the Americas. Many critics cite the following accounts in the Book of Mormon which are not supported by modern science:[8] > > ``` > * There were pre-Columbian peoples that were white, literate, and had knowledge of Hebrew and Egyptian languages and writing systems. (E.g. 1 Nephi 13:23 et. seq.) > * They smelted metal and made tools and weapons of iron, steel, and brass. (E.g. Ether 7:9, 10:23) > * They owned domesticated horses and cattle (see Horses in the Book of Mormon). > * They possessed chariots. (E.g. Alma 18:9-12) > > ``` > [@](#): > > [T]he conventional Mormon view that Native Americans are solely descended from Hebrews in Jerusalem is inconsistent with genetic findings.[10][11] In the late 1990s, scientists developed techniques to determine a person’s ethnic background and history. Thus, it is possible to compare genetic evidence of the ethnic background of Native Americans with hypotheses of the origin of Book of Mormon peoples. The Book of Mormon suggests that Native Americans descend from Middle Eastern peoples. Studies show that Native Americans have very distinctive DNA genetic markers inconsistent with this hypothesis.[12] Most genetic studies show strong relations between Native Americans and Siberian peoples > [@](#): > > [C]ertain linguistic properties of the Book of Mormon provide evidence that the book was fabricated by Joseph Smith, rather than divinely inspired. > [@](#): > > The original version of the Book of Mormon contained hundreds of grammatical errors (removed in later editions), providing evidence that the book was not divinely inspired, but rather fabricated by J. Smith. > [@](#): > > Joseph Smith fabricated the Book of Mormon, and that it was not divinely inspired. And it just goes on. All this information looks pretty damning to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is there anyway to harmonize Mormonism with objective reality? > **[Criticism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mormonism)** > > The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) has been subject to scholarly and religious criticism and public debate since its inception in the early 1800s. The discussion encompasses a wide range of issues from the church’s leaders, origins, and teachings, to its social and political stances. The historical claims of the church—including the authenticity of foundational books of scripture such as the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price, as well as the church's former pra... ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/2 "2008-01-15T05:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Is there anyway to harmonize Mormonism with objective reality? [/QUOTE] No, but it’s a religion. Denial of reality is basic to such things. It only looks extra silly because most people haven’t been fed that particular brand of silliness since childhood. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/3 "2008-01-15T05:35:07Z")
I would respectfully suggest that a comparison of any book of scripture with our understanding of “objective reality”, or at least scientifically provable historical facts, will reflect some significant disparities. To the extent a religion is a system of ritual and belief, demonstrating those disparities in scripture does not make the religion “false.” ---
**Author:** ![petew83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@petew83](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petew83)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/4 "2008-01-15T05:38:05Z")
Is this a rhetorical question? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/5 "2008-01-15T05:43:57Z")
Is there anyway to harmonize Christianity with objective reality? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/6 "2008-01-15T05:47:08Z")
As everyone has pointed out, if most (all?) religions are taken to be literally true, they do not stand up to scientific rigor. Personally, Mormonism doesn’t seem any stranger than other religions, so I’m not sure why it is so often portrayed as nutty. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/7 "2008-01-15T06:24:09Z")
If you’re looking to seriously debate these issues, why not do some deeper reading on them than you’ll get on Wikipedia? And then head off to one of the myriad message boards dedicated to discussing the questions in great detail? Or, if you’re just looking to get agreement that Mormons are crazy, you can get that most places, including here. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/8 "2008-01-15T07:57:18Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Is there anyway to harmonize Mormonism with objective reality? [/QUOTE] Religious beliefs have little to do with objective reality; that’s practically the definition of religion. Otherwise “faith” would be unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/9 "2008-01-15T11:04:34Z")
[QUOTE=madmonk28] Personally, Mormonism doesn’t seem any stranger than other religions, so I’m not sure why it is so often portrayed as nutty. [/QUOTE] Because it’s not the dominant religious belief in this part of the world. The Catholics and Protestants and so on have beliefs that are just as nutty as the Mormons, but being so powerful and common their nutty beliefs are taken dead seriously, and calling them nutty is seriously looked down upon. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/10 "2008-01-15T13:07:28Z")
Mormonism does appear to have a good number of false-to-fact points in its mythology. However, generally, Mormons are good people. So… meh. Admittedly, they’re ruining the Boy Scouts and CIA, but it’s self-correcting over time. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/11 "2008-01-15T20:40:08Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] Religious beliefs have little to do with objective reality; that’s practically the definition of religion. Otherwise “faith” would be unnecessary. [/QUOTE] Alas, that is not how most religious people see it. Religion is useful in many ways, yes, true, no. Unless you stretch the definition of true beyond all reason, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/12 "2008-01-15T20:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] If you’re looking to seriously debate these issues, why not do some deeper reading on them than you’ll get on Wikipedia? And then head off to one of the myriad message boards dedicated to discussing the questions in great detail? [/quote] Your response would be just as correct for questions about the truth of just about any religion, don’t you think. Fortunately, when someone asks a question about the charge of an electron, he doesn’t have to be sent off to a site where fifty people argue about which of several charges is the right one. > [@](#): > > Or, if you’re just looking to get agreement that Mormons are crazy, you can get that most places, including here. You know, it is not necessarily true that someone question the truth of proposition X are calling the holders of X crazy. How would you feel if I accused you of calling me crazy for not believing? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/13 "2008-01-15T20:55:49Z")
Any more crazy than a loaf of bread spontaneously growing and feeding hundreds of people? Than hundreds of dead people rising from their graves all at once, looking like they did in life and being recognized by their families? Than the Earth ceasing to rotate for a few hours so a battle could be won? Than a huge boat containing at least two animals from every living species floating around for a over a month and the those individuals repopulating the Earth? It’s all crazy. Mormonism’s events just supposedly took place more recently. I’m pretty impressed with Mormon culture and the people it has produced. They tend to be well educated and very industrious. They’re kind of like us Jews but more polite. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/14 "2008-01-15T21:12:42Z")
Is Mormonism false? Who knows? Mormonism has neither more nor less material evidence in its support of its spiritual beliefs than any other faith. Some of its historical claims are disprovable, but [the same is true of Judaism,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9300472&postcount=40) therefore of Christianity and Islam. Mormonism has, compared to other religions, a recent and highly suspicious origin story based on a set of golden plates found in a cave which only Joseph Smith and maybe a few of his closest associates ever got to see – but if you can swallow camels like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, why strain at gnats? Mormonism, at least, always has an out in form of a tradition of living prophets pronouncing a living (and evolving) revelation – they even had the recognized authority to ban polygamy, a practice Smith himself had decreed (and enthusiastically practiced) – so, in the face of archaelogical evidence incompatible with the _Book of Mormon’s_ narrative of pre-Columbian America, they can always decide the BoM is being metaphorical or something. Just like the Catholics have the pope and cardinals, who can adapt doctrine and practices to contemporary sociocultural circumstances as they see fit, and have. Again, it depends on what you mean by “false.” If the Mormons are right, all other faiths are false, or at least don’t have the whole truth. (But don’t worry, you can still be saved via posthumous Mormon baptism. 🙂 How many religions offer a second chance like **that?)** If the atheists are right, then **all** religions are false as descriptions of the-Universe-as-it-is – but they still might contain elements that are “true,” or valuable, in a spiritual or ethical sense. I mean, who could quibble with the [Noble Eightfold Path](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#The_Noble_Eightfold_Path)? [Another view, just for the halibut.](http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0118.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/15 "2008-01-15T21:14:48Z")
Aside from the outright factual errors in the Mormon Scripture (e.g., the false claims about Native American ancestry), there is the moral aspect. It wasn’t until 1978 that the Church admitted (in response to ‘revelation’ from God) that blacks were the equal of whites. Folks, that’s 14 years after passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Mormons claim their prophet has a direct line to God; and yet the Church was 14 years behind \*the federal government \* on racial equality issues. If the US government is smarter than your God, then I have doubts about your religion. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/16 "2008-01-15T21:25:11Z")
You can line up the bizarre behaviors and beliefs that are dictated by any religion and one is goofier than than last. I was never indoctrinated into any religion, so I find them equally amusing. Some are more entertaining than others (it’s pretty tough to beat magic underwear in the grins department). ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/17 "2008-01-15T21:44:47Z")
(FWIW, I was raised Mormon and attended until my early thirties, including going to Mormon-run BYU and serving a full-time mission.) **Two and a Half Inches of Fun** , it seems we go through this argument here on the SDMB about once every six months or so. The prevailing sentiment is generally that Mormonism is equally as plausible (or impausible, depending on your POV) as any other religion, but has the misfortune that it makes historical and scientific claims that are easily disprovable, since it is such a new religion. Example: **Judaism:** God killed all the firstborn sons in Egypt, including the firstborn of all the livestock, after which Pharaoh let Moses’ people go. **Christianity:** Jesus of Nazareth rose from his tomb two days after his death and appeared to several hundred people before ascending into heaven. **Mormonism:** From 600BC-400AD, there was a thriving civilization in America, complete with horses, paved roads and steelmaking. These people were descended from the Jews. **Scientology:** Xenu sent the Thetans to Earth in spaceships that looked like DC-8s. They deposited the Thetans around several volcanoes, then blew up the volcanoes with nuclear weapons, thus dispersing them all over the world. While these claims may vary in how absurd they _seem_ to us, I think that’s probably a result of our background and biases. The big difference between them is that the Mormon claim can be contradicted, or at least be shown to have a conspicuous lack of support, through modern archaeology. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/18 "2008-01-15T21:51:46Z")
Just don’t nobody start knocking us Druids. We make sense! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/19 "2008-01-15T22:04:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] Aside from the outright factual errors in the Mormon Scripture (e.g., the false claims about Native American ancestry), there is the moral aspect. It wasn’t until 1978 that the Church admitted (in response to ‘revelation’ from God) that blacks were the equal of whites. Folks, that’s 14 years after passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Mormons claim their prophet has a direct line to God; and yet the Church was 14 years behind \*the federal government \* on racial equality issues. If the US government is smarter than your God, then I have doubts about your religion. [/QUOTE] Can’t find a cite, but I read once that it took until 1972 for the RCC to drop its official position that the Jews killed Christ and all Jews inherit the guilt. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581/20 "2008-01-15T22:08:25Z")
[QUOTE=TV time] Just don’t nobody start knocking us Druids. We make sense! [/QUOTE] There once was a daring young Druid Whose manner of living was luid He’d engage Druid lasses In small talk – no passes – But the next thing they knew they’d been scruid! – either [Isaac Asimov](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_asimov) or [John Ciardi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ciardi), I’m not sure which [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-false/433581.md?page=2)