# Is Mormonism really like this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626 "2012-11-02T00:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/1 "2012-11-02T00:08:22Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=670563) in Elections, **Dogzilla** linked [this editorial:](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-a-mormon-should-not-be-president-2012-10) “Why a Mormon Should Not Be President.” The author is a SLC native and descendant of early Mormon pioneers. I found the following paragraphs most interesting: > [@](#): > > If Romney were to win, you could say Mormonism is a fringe branch of Protestant Christianity, and therefore he wouldn’t be charting any new territory. Mormonism is actually kind of a hybrid between Protestantism and Catholicism. They embrace the most basic Protestant idea of a personal relationship with God, (for men, anyway), but have the hierarchical power structure, rigid dogma, and the expectation of obedience of Catholics. > > \ > > Joseph Smith, the Mormon’s founder, was not an intellectual. He was a creative and energetic megalomaniac, and intensely charismatic individual. But he was no Martin Luther, nor even a Calvin. He didn’t come up with a revolutionary and enduring idea on which to base the religion. Mormonism, instead, is founded on the belief that American Indians are descended from Jews (this is not a joke – you can look it up). He unified two pop culture historical mysteries of the mid-nineteenth century among the uneducated middle class, (1) where did the American Indians come from, and (2) what happened to the two lost tribes of Israel? > > The “answer” to this twin mystery is the subject of the monumentally tedious and derivative Book of Mormon, which, along with the King James Bible and a few other thin volumes of inspiration from Joseph Smith (which include the original revelation on polygamy), are the holy books on which the religion is based. It tells the story of the lost tribes of Israel getting into boats, settling the Americas, and getting a visit from Jesus while on a layover during his resurrection > > \ > > But what about now? How, in this day and age of higher common learning and mitochondrial DNA analysis, could not just a religion, but a complete society continue to thrive as well as Mormonism does, when it is based on such clearly false tenets? This question used to really bug me, until I was blessed with another realization (or perhaps I should call it a revelation?) some years ago. > > Mormonism’s social structure is so strong, not despite its frail basis in truth, but _because_ of it – because it makes the price of admission to the club high. To say “Yes, I am a Mormon” is to say “Yes, I’m in the 2+2=5 club, are you?” This (along with expensive tithing) filters out casual participants. You need to be willing to compromise a normal sense of what’s reasonable and rational to be part of this group. It’s a strong commitment, which makes for a strong creed. > > A necessary consequence of this is that Mormons must be insular and secretive. Of course their aggressive proselytizing may make them seem less insular than, say, the Amish. But all of that missionary salesmanship is just an entreaty to join an ultimately insular society. This is what is behind the Mormons’ reticence and awkwardness at being in the cultural spotlight. But the key point of insularity is it’s a society based on a _private version of the truth._ Is this a fair take on the Mormon faith? Is it really that dogmatic and hierarchical and insular? Any Latter-Dope Saints here care to comment? ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/2 "2012-11-02T01:46:11Z")
of course the founders of Christianity were no intellectuals either and they also made some pretty wild claims. and some folks said JFK shouldn’t be president because he would be under the pope’s thumb no matter what a candidates religion it will have some influence on him or her as does their family upbringing, education, work history, party affiliation etc. I don’t think being Morman is any better or worse then any number of other things. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/3 "2012-11-02T01:56:51Z")
I for one would have been quite happy with a Mormon named George Romney being President in 1960 and think Harry Reid, also a Mormon, has been a vastly more effective Senate Majority leader then Tom Daschle. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/4 "2012-11-02T01:59:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is this a fair take on the Mormon faith? Is it really that dogmatic and hierarchical and insular? Any Latter-Dope Saints here care to comment? I am not a former Latter-Day Saint, but I’ll comment anyway. One could nitpick a few of the things that the article says, but broadly speaking it’s true. As discussed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=666674), the LDS Church is secretive about its dogma and the workings of its heirarchy. They also emphasize testimony of spiritual assurances of truth, rather than intellectual investigation. [This article has some of the evidence for that](http://20truths.info/mormon/emotionality.html). (Of course certain persons will be along to claim the same is true for all religions. Yawn.) Now whether or not Romney’s inability to shoot straight on almost any topic stems from his Mormon background is a different question. As I see it, all big-league politicians have to lie a fair amount, given the nature of government and politics in modern-day America. Anyone who had a big hang-up about lying wouldn’t rise very far in either of the major parties. I see no need to look at Romney’s grounding in Mormonism for an explanation of that. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/5 "2012-11-02T02:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Mormonism’s social structure is so strong, not despite its frail basis in truth, but because of it – because it makes the price of admission to the club high. To say “Yes, I am a Mormon” is to say “Yes, I’m in the 2+2=5 club, are you?” This (along with expensive tithing) filters out casual participants. You need to be willing to compromise a normal sense of what’s reasonable and rational to be part of this group. It’s a strong commitment, which makes for a strong creed. To be a Christian you have, at least traditionally and/or technically, needed to ratify the notion that God the Almighty, whose Creation had been badly corrupted by yon slithery specimen and bad character on the part of the people He’d created, could only be allowed (by Whom? presumably Himself?!!) to forgive humankind if He were presented with the appropriate sacrifice, to which end he came down and manifested himself as Jesus of Nazareth for the express purpose of getting his ass killed, causing God to be dead until he wasn’t, which was after 3 days at which point he rose into heaven to sit at the right side of Himself in his Other Incarnation as God the Father, who now was allowed to forgive people for original sin. And now you have been Saved, but only if you acknowledge that you BELIEVE ALL THIS and accept Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior. And once a month you’re supposed to participate in communion, whereby some bread or crackers become converted into the body of the dead Jesus, and some wine or grape juce become his blood, and you eat and drink those because he said you should eat his body and drink his blood in remembrance of him and it’s really important and stuff. I’m not saying the tenets of Mormonism aren’t damned silly but they’ve got a valid legacy within institutional Christianity if you see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/6 "2012-11-02T02:24:32Z")
In my opinion, the article is very insightful and accurate about Mormonism, but is less persuasive when it starts armchair diagnosing Mitt Romney. The idea that Mormonism survives counterintuitively because of its unbelievability is a great insight. It is a very insular world when it comes to religious beliefs. However, the insight that Mitt Romney is a privileged asshole who thinks he knows better than everyone else is not novel nor particularly related to Mormonism, except that it’s a very patriarchal authoritarian religion that rewards people being rich successful assholes. So do a million Prosperity Gospel evangelical sects. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/7 "2012-11-02T02:56:12Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > To be a Christian you have, at least traditionally and/or technically, > > And once a month you’re supposed to participate in communion, whereby some bread or crackers become converted into the body of the dead Jesus, and some wine or grape juce become his blood, and you eat and drink those because he said you should eat his body and drink his blood in remembrance of him and it’s really important and stuff. (snipped) If we’re getting technical here, that’s not actually true. That is called [Impanation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impanation), and is regarded as rank heresy, even by the Catholics and Lutherans (who are otherwise all over the mystical shit). What you’re going for is not quite so squicky - It’s called [Transubstantiation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation). Basically, it isn’t REALLY the body and blood, just the ESSENCE of it, and nothing physically changes. That’s only for the Catholics tho. On the other hand, the Lutherans DO go for [Sacramental Union](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_union), which is a messy concept - once blessed, the bread and wine are both regular bread and grape juice AND \*spiritually \*the body and blood of Christ at the same time (but not physically, because that’s squicky), or for [Consubstantiation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consubstantiation)(what my church taught) which tries to make it more logical (hah) by saying that the body doesn’t metaphysically/spiritually show up \*in \*the bread/crackers/rice cake, but that it shows up at the blessing and sort of philosophically hangs out. They’re both dead set against any of that being actually PHYSICAL - because, you know, that’s gross. The more prissy among the Anglicans go for [Transignification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transignification), which, as the name implies, indicates that there is a sort of sacramental significance to that particular bread and grape-liquid (not always alcoholic) because it has been blessed. No bodies. Others like the Baptists are even less cool with the body and blood thing. [Memorialists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorialism) go for the “remember my sacrifice” idea. They’re totally squicked out by the Catholics and confused as hell by the Lutherans (not that I blame them). Continue on against Christians or Mormons as you wish, but do be honest and informed about it. They’re crazy enough without having to make shit up to sound more dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/8 "2012-11-02T02:57:33Z")
Google “_Southpark Mormon_” ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/9 "2012-11-02T03:07:31Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > To be a Christian you have, at least traditionally and/or technically, needed to ratify the notion…I’m not saying the tenets of Mormonism aren’t damned silly but they’ve got a valid legacy within institutional Christianity if you see what I mean. Two rather cynical summations that amuse this Agnostic: “The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree… Yeah, Christianity makes perfect sense.” and (paraphrased from faulty memory) “God gave birth to himself, to sacrifice himself to himself, in order to save us from himself.” Amazingly, Mormonism is even sillier. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/10 "2012-11-02T03:10:19Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > What you’re going for is not quite so squicky - It’s called Transubstantiation. Basically, it isn’t REALLY the body and blood, just the ESSENCE of it, and nothing physically changes. That’s only for the Catholics tho. Your own link defines Transubstantiation as “the doctrine that, in the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and the wine used in the sacrament is changed into the substance of the Body and the Blood of Jesus, while all that is accessible to the senses (the appearances - species in Latin) remains as before.” That sounds to me like it implies a literal, physical change. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/11 "2012-11-02T03:11:13Z")
The quoted article sounds like it was written by a disgruntled asshole with an axe to grind to me. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/12 "2012-11-02T03:15:26Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The quoted article sounds like it was written by a disgruntled asshole with an axe to grind to me. In that case it will surely resonate with more than a few SDMB members then, eh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/13 "2012-11-02T03:23:13Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > of course the founders of Christianity were no intellectuals either and they also made some pretty wild claims. > > and some folks said JFK shouldn’t be president because he would be under the pope’s thumb > > no matter what a candidates religion it will have some influence on him or her as does their family upbringing, education, work history, party affiliation etc. > > I don’t think being Morman is any better or worse then any number of other things. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I for one would have been quite happy with a Mormon named George Romney being President in 1960 and think Harry Reid, also a Mormon, has been a vastly more effective Senate Majority leader then Tom Daschle. Well, the same editorial says: > [@](#): > > Now you could go all Dawkins on me and say that all religions have this brittle, monolithic epistemology. But the difference is that once a religion gets to a certain level of maturity, it no longer has to constantly assert the legitimacy of whatever myths it is based on. The theological constructs then become increasingly abstract, the ethics overtake the dogma, and the pragmatic issues are allowed to be pragmatic. > > So I am not saying having a president with religious convictions is problematic. Far from it. Jimmy Carter was the most outwardly religious president, of the modern era at least. But his Christianity manifests mostly in a deep sense of empathy and forgiveness. Having this key, powerful component of Christianity guide public policy is a good thing in a leader. It can even be inspiring, such as with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of post-Apartheid South Africa, which, despite not being perfect, enabled tremendous healing within a very wounded society. > > While Mormons have adopted these Christian ethics and practice them well, particularly among their own, at its core, this isn’t what Mormonism is about. It’s about being a club. > > \ > > Now it’s not the case that all Mormons are categorically disqualified from being president. It’s just that we should only consider someone with a bit more distance from the dogmatic traps of this young religion. Someone more like Huntsman, for example. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/14 "2012-11-02T03:25:49Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > To be a Christian you have, at least traditionally and/or technically, needed to ratify the notion that God the Almighty, whose Creation had been badly corrupted by yon slithery specimen and bad character on the part of the people He’d created, could only be allowed (by Whom? presumably Himself?!!) to forgive humankind if He were presented with the appropriate sacrifice, to which end he came down and manifested himself as Jesus of Nazareth for the express purpose of getting his ass killed, causing God to be dead until he wasn’t, which was after 3 days at which point he rose into heaven to sit at the right side of Himself in his Other Incarnation as God the Father, who now was allowed to forgive people for original sin. And now you have been Saved, but only if you acknowledge that you BELIEVE ALL THIS and accept Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior. > > And once a month you’re supposed to participate in communion, whereby some bread or crackers become converted into the body of the dead Jesus, and some wine or grape juce become his blood, and you eat and drink those because he said you should eat his body and drink his blood in remembrance of him and it’s really important and stuff. > I’m not saying the tenets of Mormonism aren’t damned silly but they’ve got a valid legacy within institutional Christianity if you see what I mean. Yes, yes, but all that is merely confusing, which is not unusual for religions; Mormonism is based on a historiography which is patently false, and sophisticated Mormons must know it as well as anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/15 "2012-11-02T04:10:42Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The quoted article sounds like it was written by a disgruntled asshole with an axe to grind to me. Which parts were inaccurate? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/16 "2012-11-02T04:16:23Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Google “_Southpark Mormon_” True, just as anyone wanting to learn what Jews are like should watch this. [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105483/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105483/) ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/17 "2012-11-02T04:36:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes, but all that is merely confusing, which is not unusual for religions; Mormonism is based on a historiography which is patently false, and sophisticated Mormons must know it as well as anyone. I think you’re seriously overestimating the number of smart people willing to accurately assess the validity of their religious beliefs. What are you even arguing here? That Romney secretly knows Mormonism is a hoax and therefore shouldn’t be President? Or that Romney really does believe in Mormonism and therefore shouldn’t be President? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/18 "2012-11-02T04:44:27Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I think you’re seriously overestimating the number of smart people willing to accurately assess the validity of their religious beliefs. > > What are you even arguing here? That Romney secretly knows Mormonism is a hoax and therefore shouldn’t be President? Or that Romney really does believe in Mormonism and therefore shouldn’t be President? What is being argued here is pretty well stated in the title of the thread. What is the answer to the question put forth? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/19 "2012-11-02T05:01:27Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I think you’re seriously overestimating the number of smart people willing to accurately assess the validity of their religious beliefs. > > What are you even arguing here? That Romney secretly knows Mormonism is a hoax and therefore shouldn’t be President? Or that Romney really does believe in Mormonism and therefore shouldn’t be President? Romney is only tangential here, that discussion belongs in Elections. I’m inviting debate as to whether the Church of JC of LDS really is what the author of the editorial says it is, i.e., something especially hierarchical, dogmatic, insular and clubby even compared to other religions. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/20 "2012-11-02T05:09:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Romney is only tangential here, that discussion belongs in Elections. I’m inviting debate as to whether the Church of JC of LDS really is what the author of the editorial says it is, i.e., something especially hierarchical, dogmatic, insular and clubby even compared to other religions. Okay, then the answer is simple. Yes. Extremely hierarchical, dogmatic, insular, clubby, and I’ll throw in patriarchal and gerontocratic. Everything the article says regarding Mormonism is spot on, with the single exception of a typo: ten tribes of Israel were “lost,” not two. Otherwise I think the author has some great insights into Mormonism, but not into Mitt Romney. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626.md?page=2)