# Is Mormonism really like this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626 "2012-11-02T00:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/41 "2012-11-02T17:53:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Only in America. And I’m not being entirely derisive when I say that; there is something very fundamentally American about Mormonism. Of course some people in the U.S. wouldn’t be satisfied with the idea that humanity was created in the Middle East and Jesus preached the gospel in Israel. It seems almost inevitable that someone came up with the idea that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and Jesus came to America. That religion was founded by a guy who more or less had a fraud charge on his record, and of course (especially since it was hyperreligious upstate New York), people believed him when he said an angel had given him scriptures he wouldn’t show to anybody else. In any case, if people have time and want to read something else troubling about Mormonism - a story that is both troubling and encouraging regarding the way the LDS church deals with its own history - [Slate just put out this piece.](http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2012/11/d_michael_quinn_and_mormon_excommunication_the_complicated_life_of_a_mormon.single.html) Thanks for the link to the Slate article. I’m betting it’s a bit too “inside baseball” for a non-Mormon audience but it’s very well done. Mormonism has always relied on a tremendous amount of insularity to protect its membership from outside objective sources. That’s why you have intelligent Mormons who can get advanced degrees at Ivy League universities, but will completely turn off their mind on the subject of Mormonism. The Church always stresses that the only true reliable info on church history comes from them and any outside sources are anti-Mormon propaganda. I think this is lessening in the Internet age (though I haven’t been to church in a long time so I’m not sure) but still you’ll see Mormons show up occasionally here and have a conniption when they see an objective non-Sunday School discussion of the church. Anyway, D. Michael Quinn is a hero of Mormon scholarship and it’s a shame that ostensibly public universities have allowed religiously motivated individuals to have veto power over his employment. Sad and disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/42 "2012-11-02T17:54:32Z")
> [@drlarson](#): > > Besides, Mormons believe that eventually they will take control of the country and create a theocracy. That is embedded in their doctrine. Seriously?! ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/43 "2012-11-02T18:10:03Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I was taught that all references to Jesus drinking wine were really a mistranslation and he was drinking grape juice, but i don’t think I was ever gullible enough to take that seriously. Slight tangent based on this quoted fragment. When you live in the middle east, and don’t have refrigeration or pasteurization and bottling technology, how _can_ you keep your grape juice from fermenting more than a week after harvest? You can’t. That’s why you make wine. To preserve the stuff. _That’s_ why the ‘mistranslation’ explanation is obvious bullshit. Pet peeve of mine that pisses me off every time I hear that. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/44 "2012-11-02T18:22:00Z")
> [@drlarson](#): > > Oh yes everything you wrote is totally true. I was raised a Mormon and our family was very active in the church. I left the church many years ago because of some of the facts you mentioned, and more besides. > > The church membership is highly educated, in general. So why do they continue to believe? I think different people have their own reasons. Many members know full well that the church is based on a fiction. They stay with it because it’s good for the family, and because it’s a part of their culture, and they are comfortable with it. Others are true believers and you know how that can cloud your ability to see things for how they really are. > > The bottom line is that people can be trained to believe practically anything. It’s a very strange fact of humanity. People are not that smart, and not that rational. I worry that my current set of beliefs are also false and I am just too dumb to see it. Not that I’m religious anymore, but my politics, my ethics, could be all wrong. For example, I like Obama. My family are all Romney fans, of course. But I don’t know: Maybe Obama is not as good as I think he is, because I don’t have access to enough facts, and because I am probably still reacting negatively to all things Mormon, so I would prefer virtually anyone over Romney. **Besides, Mormons believe that eventually they will take control of the country and create a theocracy. That is embedded in their doctrine**. Like **BrainGlutton** , I would really like a cite on this. ---
**Author:** ![theLuckyWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ab097/32.png) [@theLuckyWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theLuckyWalker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/45 "2012-11-02T18:31:00Z")
I’m at work right now and can’t research it. But it was talked about all the time when I was growing up. I believe Joseph Smith said one day the U.S. government would “hang by a thread” and at that point the church would step in and take control. Oh here it is: [White Horse Prophecy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Horse_Prophecy) ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/46 "2012-11-02T18:35:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Seriously?! I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to be **after the apocalypse** the CoJCLDS takes over the country (the world, really) and rules in God’s name, at least that’s how my friends have always stated it. Which is a much less radical position since I think pretty much **every** church thinks they’ll be the One True Church after the apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/47 "2012-11-02T18:40:29Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to be **after the apocalypse** the CoJCLDS takes over the country (the world, really) and rules in God’s name. Which is a much less radical position since I think pretty much **every** church thinks they’ll be the One True Church after the apocalypse. Yes, this is much closer to the truth. The White Horse Prophecy is more Mormon folklore than anything else, not established doctrine. (But yes, I heard about it a lot growing up, but note that Mormons will supposedly SAVE the Constitution, not replace it with theocracy.) The Mormon Theocracy will occur much later when the Apocalypse is happening. ---
**Author:** ![theLuckyWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ab097/32.png) [@theLuckyWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theLuckyWalker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/48 "2012-11-02T18:42:21Z")
No, this was said around the time Joseph Smith was trying to run for president of the United States. And Mormons today, including my parents, believe that the church will save the union and implement a theocracy. I know it’s not official church doctrine, but that does not stop true believers from thinking about it and talking about it and agreeing with the idea. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/49 "2012-11-02T18:51:11Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > (snipped) > > If we’re getting technical here, that’s not actually true. That is called [Impanation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impanation), and is regarded as rank heresy, even by the Catholics and Lutherans (who are otherwise all over the mystical shit). > > What you’re going for is not quite so squicky - It’s called [Transubstantiation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation). Basically, it isn’t REALLY the body and blood, just the ESSENCE of it, and nothing physically changes. That’s only for the Catholics tho. > > On the other hand, the Lutherans DO go for [Sacramental Union](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_union), which is a messy concept - once blessed, the bread and wine are both regular bread and grape juice AND \*spiritually \*the body and blood of Christ at the same time (but not physically, because that’s squicky), or for [Consubstantiation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consubstantiation)(what my church taught) which tries to make it more logical (hah) by saying that the body doesn’t metaphysically/spiritually show up \*in \*the bread/crackers/rice cake, but that it shows up at the blessing and sort of philosophically hangs out. They’re both dead set against any of that being actually PHYSICAL - because, you know, that’s gross. > > The more prissy among the Anglicans go for [Transignification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transignification), which, as the name implies, indicates that there is a sort of sacramental significance to that particular bread and grape-liquid (not always alcoholic) because it has been blessed. No bodies. > > Others like the Baptists are even less cool with the body and blood thing. [Memorialists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorialism) go for the “remember my sacrifice” idea. They’re totally squicked out by the Catholics and confused as hell by the Lutherans (not that I blame them). > > Continue on against Christians or Mormons as you wish, but do be honest and informed about it. They’re crazy enough without having to make shit up to sound more dramatic. I just wanted to say “Good post” so, umm: Good post! ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/50 "2012-11-02T18:59:26Z")
> [@drlarson](#): > > No, this was said around the time Joseph Smith was trying to run for president of the United States. And Mormons today, including my parents, believe that the church will save the union and implement a theocracy. I know it’s not official church doctrine, but that does not stop true believers from thinking about it and talking about it and agreeing with the idea. Well, I can’t refute your experience but only add my own. My parents are also convinced that “Mormons will rescue the Constitution” but I never assumed that rescuing the Constitution would involve destroying it in favor of theocracy. The idea just doesn’t make sense. The Constitution enshrines elections, not theocracy. And as you must well know, Mormons fetishize the Founding Fathers and believe they were all inspired of God. I just don’t see where the theocracy comes into it. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/51 "2012-11-02T19:24:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes, but all that is merely confusing, which is not unusual for religions; Mormonism is based on a historiography which is patently false, and sophisticated Mormons must know it as well as anyone. Whereas other religions are based on historiographies which are so ancient and poorly substantiated that they can’t be shown to be true or false. The LDS has the misfortune of being both based on ludicrous stories AND being new enough that reasonable people can ask “Cite?”. If Joseph Smith (assuming a much earlier colonization) had lived in New York 1000 years ago, his just so stories about the natives would be as mainstream as the Baptists are today. ---
**Author:** ![theLuckyWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ab097/32.png) [@theLuckyWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theLuckyWalker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/52 "2012-11-02T19:32:47Z")
You are right: Mormons are crazy about the Constitution. They think it’s an inspired document and all that. But a theocracy would replace it, for certain. Freedom of expression would be severely curtailed, in all likelihood. Just like how Joseph Smith destroyed a printing press that was run by anti-Mormons in whatever town in Missouri or Illinois or Ohio back then… ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/53 "2012-11-02T20:01:57Z")
> [@drlarson](#): > > You are right: Mormons are crazy about the Constitution. They think it’s an inspired document and all that. But a theocracy would replace it, for certain. Freedom of expression would be severely curtailed, in all likelihood. Just like how Joseph Smith destroyed a printing press that was run by anti-Mormons in whatever town in Missouri or Illinois or Ohio back then… Nauvoo, Illinois. [The Nauvoo Expositor.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor) ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/54 "2012-11-02T22:41:20Z")
I’ll note that Joseph Smith seemed enamored with Columbus, writing an allusion to him into the Book of Mormon, but the Constitution and Founding Father worship seems to stem from the much later Wilford Woodruff era. It may be significant that this is the same era when the White Horse Prophecy first emerges. I think this would be a good idea to explore in a term paper or Master’s thesis: when the Mormon church reached its nadir in reputation and relationship with the larger United States and its federal government (1880s), that’s when Woodruff had his “vision” of the Founding Fathers in the St. George temple. It seems plausible that he was trying to reconcile the anti-American feelings of his flock with their inevitable non-polygamous future within the U.S. The Founding Fathers and Constitution were safely in the past (pre-Mormon era) and thus could be venerated without hard feelings. ---
**Author:** ![theLuckyWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ab097/32.png) [@theLuckyWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theLuckyWalker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/55 "2012-11-02T22:54:26Z")
Erdosain that seems very reasonable to me. Joseph Smith certainly had grandiose ideas. In one of his writings he compared himself to Mohammad, and asserted that he would put all of his enemies under his heel. The St. George temple is where I received my “endowment.” My grandfather was a temple worker there, so he performed the ceremony personally. His own grandfather was a close associate of Brigham Young. With so much Mormon history in my family I feel sad that the religion is just a big load of horse shit, but that’s what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/56 "2012-11-03T00:08:38Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Slight tangent based on this quoted fragment. When you live in the middle east, and don’t have refrigeration or pasteurization and bottling technology, how _can_ you keep your grape juice from fermenting more than a week after harvest? You can’t. That’s why you make wine. To preserve the stuff. _That’s_ why the ‘mistranslation’ explanation is obvious bullshit. Pet peeve of mine that pisses me off every time I hear that. That and [grape juice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welch%27s), at least as we know it, didn’t even exist until the 1800s. (Oh man, now I’m craving a cold glass of grape juice) Besides, it looks like Jesus is still here, performing the same [miracles](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/Lulz/21519_368676629887292_1994165551_n.jpg). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/57 "2012-11-03T06:25:13Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Google “_Southpark Mormon_” That’s another question – are Mormons really as cheerful and nice as portrayed in that episode? ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/58 "2012-11-04T17:24:54Z")
All the ones I’ve met are, at least in public and semi-private. It’s part of the socialization and basic lifestyle. Lots of other very fundamentalist or pentacostal Christians are extremely perky and happy also. It’s considered a totally valid form of testimony to show the benefits of being a Christian. Conversely, if you’re \*not \*happy, you’re strongly encouraged to put a sock in it and focus on how other people have it worse, and that God loves you and you have a responsibility to fake it til you make it by focusing on other people and how to help them. This is important because you’re saved and held to a higher standard than “self-centered” people. I think the Duggars have mentioned the philosophy on TV also: Check out the reason for their [JOY](http://powertochange.com/blogposts/2008/11/02/jesus-others-you/)in life. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/59 "2012-11-04T19:08:51Z")
> [@drlarson](#): > > The St. George temple is where I received my “endowment.” That’s begging for so many different joke responses, I don’t even know where to begin. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626/60 "2012-11-05T16:21:25Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > All the ones I’ve met are, at least in public and semi-private. It’s part of the socialization and basic lifestyle. > > Lots of other very fundamentalist or pentacostal Christians are extremely perky and happy also. It’s considered a totally valid form of testimony to show the benefits of being a Christian. Conversely, if you’re \*not \*happy, you’re strongly encouraged to put a sock in it and focus on how other people have it worse, and that God loves you and you have a responsibility to fake it til you make it by focusing on other people and how to help them. This is important because you’re saved and held to a higher standard than “self-centered” people. > > I think the Duggars have mentioned the philosophy on TV also: Check out the reason for their [JOY](http://powertochange.com/blogposts/2008/11/02/jesus-others-you/)in life. :rolleyes: The name “Stepford” comes to mind for some reason . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mormonism-really-like-this/639626.md?page=4)