# Is MRA/pick-up artist/incel "biological psychology" necessarily........wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132 "2019-07-15T15:30:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/1 "2019-07-15T15:30:17Z")
First off, let’s address the groups of people in question: Many MRAs, pick-up artists, and incels are unsavory **people** , and many of their views are reprehensible. So there’s that. I don’t think there’ll be much dispute on the Dope about that. Now, with that out of the way, the biology or psychological theories that they put forth seem to be, for the most part, scientifically sound. From Reddit and elsewhere, their science is as follows (from what I can gather of them): [ul] [li]Women are the bottleneck of reproduction, because it takes a woman 9 months to bear a child (and she cannot bear any other children while already pregnant) whereas men can simply disperse their many millions of sperm about with ease. One man can impregnate a thousand women, but a thousand men can’t all impregnate one woman. So from the standpoint of reproduction, women are incredibly valuable while men are incredibly cheap. (Not that a woman’s value lies only in reproduction, but just saying that insofar as this issue is concerned, women hold vastly more value) [/li][li]In addition to men being less valuable in reproduction, men are also stronger and more suited to rough tasks or danger, and hence society has much less qualms about having men die in combat or dangerous occupations. [/li][li]Women are drawn towards men who possess traits such as confidence, strength, height, status within a group, leadership, maturity, wealth, success and responsibility because those are traits that make for a good provider and defender. Furthermore, being with a male of high societal status also confers status upon the woman as well. [/li][li]Conversely, men are drawn towards women who are young, have attributes such as symmetry of face, curves on the body, etc. because those are biological traits that make for suitable reproduction (a woman who is too skinny or fat, for instance, might not do well in pregnancy; ditto for a woman who is over the age of 45.) (Not that men are consciously thinking such things, but rather, subconsciously drawn towards such attributes)[/li][/ul] There are other beliefs of theirs, but those 4 listed above are generally the gist of it. Now, from a sheer scientific standpoint (again, ignoring the distastefulness of many of the people propagating the views,) are these 4 claims necessarily…wrong? They seem to be entirely backed up by facts; women do, in fact, usually prefer men who are wealthy, confident, successful and have status; men generally do, go for women who are young and have a curvy figure and pretty face; society does, in fact, consider men to be more “dispensable” than women in many ways and it is undeniably biologically true that women are the “bottleneck of reproduction.” ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/2 "2019-07-15T15:43:51Z")
Regardless of whether there is a bottleneck for reproduction, there’s much less of one for sex. And it seems to be sex, not necessarily babbies, that the incels are after. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/3 "2019-07-15T15:45:03Z")
Could you define what an MRA and incel are? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/4 "2019-07-15T16:04:46Z")
Let’s posit STRICTLY for the sake of arguing the points that follow that these patterns do exist, and exist intrinsically as opposed to having been inculcated by socialization alone. I do not stipulate that they do, but bracketing that off for the time being… Individual male and female humans are not wind-up toys that march lockstep to the tune of their biological pipes. So what you get, IF you get anything of this ilk, is a general trend of behavior among the sexes. Where that leaves me w/regards to the Incels/MRA folk is that, like so many other social echoes of human sexual experience, they turn a generalization (which they are resentfully _complaining_ about, at least superficially) into an absolute. Their recommendations to their own target audience – the males who experience themselves as sidelined and left out of sexual activity – is not very different from the generic social recommendations on how to be a sexually successful male, except for the extra-high dose of cynicism, hostility, and disgust at the whole situation. They _could be_ identifying themselves and their target audience as exceptions to these generalizations, insofar as it doesn’t seem to be “coming naturally” to these guys to be suave comfortably confident initiators of sexual activity. They don’t. They _could_ concentrate on strategies for locating the female people who are also exceptions to these generalizations, on the premise that if they wish to connect but don’t like these rules and expectations, but they’re not doing that. In short, a sexual revolution for male marginalized misfits they are NOT. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/5 "2019-07-15T16:10:29Z")
[quote=“Velocity, post:1, topic:837132”] [li]In addition to men being less valuable in reproduction, men are also stronger and more suited to rough tasks or danger, and hence society has much less qualms about having men die in combat or dangerous occupations. [/li][/QUOTE] The problem with this as an argument is that it’s technically true, but essentially irrelevant. The number of men in the modern world who die from such causes is just not statistically significant. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/6 "2019-07-15T16:14:08Z")
Let’s pretend for a second that all of your bullet points are true. Some groups, including the ones you call out are not content just with these things being true, They want to mandate this behavior for all of society. They insist that society organize itself in only this manor and any man or woman who doesn’t want to follow these “traditional” roles are somehow evil and a detriment to society and should be punished or ostracized or made to conform. Which, imho, is where they and there thoughts go off the rail. mc ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/7 "2019-07-15T16:16:52Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Let’s pretend for a second that all of your bullet points are true. > Some groups, including the ones you call out are not content just with these things being true, They want to mandate this behavior for all of society. They insist that society organize itself in only this manor and any man or woman who doesn’t want to follow these “traditional” roles are somehow evil and a detriment to society and should be punished or ostracized or made to conform. Which, imho, is where they and there thoughts go off the rail. > > mc The impression I get from Reddit and elsewhere is exactly the opposite: MRAs, incels, etc. are not mandating these principles; they are \*\*\*complaining \*\*\*about them. They are complaining that women go for rich guys, that men’s deaths are much less mourned, that society views men and women differently, that only men have to register for Selective Service, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/8 "2019-07-15T16:18:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Could you define what an MRA and incel are? Men who can’t get laid. MRAs blame society for it; incels blame it more specifically on women. > [@Velocity](#): > > Now, from a sheer scientific standpoint (again, ignoring the distastefulness of many of the people propagating the views,) are these 4 claims necessarily…wrong? They seem to be entirely backed up by facts… The theories aren’t wrong, or not entirely wrong. The conclusions they draw from the theories are wrong. For instance, if you think this - > [@](#): > > Women are drawn towards men who possess traits such as confidence, strength, height, status within a group, leadership, maturity, wealth, success and responsibility because those are traits that make for a good provider and defender. Furthermore, being with a male of high societal status also confers status upon the woman as well. An MRA will conclude “only creeps get laid” and incels say “I’m a creep - I should be getting more ass than a barber’s chair”. This contradicts the experience of the vast majority of non-creep men who nonetheless get laid, and the vast majority of non-stupid women who don’t like creeps. It’s mostly a matter of assigning blame. All men (and women) are confronted with the same set of problems (mostly). Most of them get laid, eventually. Usually, if a guy can’t get any women to have sex with him, it isn’t the women’s fault. That’s a difficult thing to admit, because changing yourself to fix your faults is hard. MRAs and incels aren’t willing to make the effort. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/9 "2019-07-15T16:19:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The impression I get from Reddit and elsewhere is exactly the opposite: MRAs, incels, etc. are not mandating these principles; they are \*\*\*complaining \*\*\*about them. They are complaining that women go for rich guys, that men’s deaths are much less mourned, that society views men and women differently, that only men have to register for Selective Service, etc. They probably complain about the weather too. What makes them think the world is 1) fair, or 2) designed for their benefit? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/10 "2019-07-15T16:20:48Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Could you define what an MRA and incel are? MRA’s are men’s rights activists (or advocates). They’re men who believe that American society is biased against men and towards women and are advocated for changes to address this imbalance. Incels are involuntary celibates. These are men who say they want to have a relationship with a woman but are unable to find a willing woman because society has indoctrinated women against relationships. This is how these men see themselves. They are viewed more negatively by people outside their groups. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/11 "2019-07-15T16:23:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Could you define what an MRA and incel are? Why are you asking these questions when you have already shown you know what they mean? [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21604125&postcount=79](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21604125&postcount=79) > [@](#): > > What we need to do is instead of making fun of these “incels”… > So many young men in their early 20’s do stupid things. Alot tied to wanting sex and companionship. They get lonely, horny, and frustrated when they look around and all these other guys have the beautiful women and they cant even get a date. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/12 "2019-07-15T16:25:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This contradicts the experience of the vast majority of non-creep men who nonetheless get laid, and the vast majority of non-stupid women who don’t like creeps. > > It’s mostly a matter of assigning blame. All men (and women) are confronted with the same set of problems (mostly). Most of them get laid, eventually. Usually, if a guy can’t get any women to have sex with him, it isn’t the women’s fault. That’s a difficult thing to admit, because changing yourself to fix your faults is hard. MRAs and incels aren’t willing to make the effort. I agree. The reality is that women are dating men and having sex with men all the time. So if you’re a man who isn’t getting any it’s not because there’s something wrong with women. It’s because there’s something wrong with you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/13 "2019-07-15T16:27:15Z")
The basic concepts aren’t wrong but the assholery they tack on is entirely by choice. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/14 "2019-07-15T16:28:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The impression I get from Reddit and elsewhere is exactly the opposite: MRAs, incels, etc. are not mandating these principles; they are \*\*\*complaining \*\*\*about them. They are complaining that women go for rich guys, that men’s deaths are much less mourned, that society views men and women differently, that only men have to register for Selective Service, etc. I spent some time at a site that I discovered was run by incels. That was exactly the attitude of most, and the hatred some of them had for me and my kind was palpable. It was very unpleasant to say the least, but educational. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/15 "2019-07-15T16:40:02Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Regardless of whether there is a bottleneck for reproduction, there’s much less of one for sex. And it seems to be sex, not necessarily babbies, that the incels are after. But it’s a crude evolutionary psychology model. _If_ our behaviors are driven by instinct, natural selection has not had time to change those instinctive behaviors to take into account modern contraception that enables sex independent of reproductive considerations. The “pick-up artist” model that OP describes asserts that many women tend to follow simplistic instinctive behaviors without much cultural or rational modification (or that culture has not advanced beyond those simple instincts). ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/16 "2019-07-15T16:52:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The impression I get from Reddit and elsewhere is exactly the opposite: MRAs, incels, etc. are not mandating these principles; they are \*\*\*complaining \*\*\*about them. They are complaining that women go for rich guys, that men’s deaths are much less mourned, that society views men and women differently, that only men have to register for Selective Service, etc. yeah…I don’t know much about incels, but the MRA movement is in response to the Women’s Lib movement. They say that the feminists are dismantling traditional society in a way that gives an unfair advantage to women, while keeping the parts that tended to favor women. That’s why they always bring up things like selective service and hazardous jobs. If women were really interested in equality, they say, then why don’t they do something about the disparities in these institutions? Clearly it’s because they are not interested in equality but in favoritism for women. Traditional society, according to MRA’a, was more egalitarian. Both men and women endured hardships and benefits equally. mc ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/17 "2019-07-15T16:57:36Z")
I know the OP didn’t mean to, but there is an obvious poisoning of the well here. None of these groups are _defined_ by believing any of the claims in the OP. I know that all 3 groups are toxic now in popular culture, particularly in the US, but this is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/18 "2019-07-15T16:59:40Z")
Here’s my understanding, for what it’s worth: The four bullet points of the OP are teachings of **evolutionary psychology** , a legitimate but controversial approach to explaining human psychology, especially with regards to sexual attraction, by what has evolutionarily been built into us via sexual selection. As such, they are **descriptive** but not **prescriptive** : they purport to help explain the way we are, but they do not presume to tell us what we should do about it. **Pick-up artists** use tricks and techniques to try to obtain sex (or attention, or validation, or something like that) from women. Their tricks and techniques are often based on or justified by evolutionary psychology. **Incels** and **MRA** types complain about the way things are vs the way they think things should be, often appealing to evolutionary psychology to justify their complaints. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/19 "2019-07-15T17:06:06Z")
I think the idea that “ease of pregnancy” is a primary selection factor for men is flawed. Hunter gather societies don’t want a baby every ten months. They can’t support them. They want a baby every 3 years or so. Furthermore, women contribute significantly to the long term survival of their offspring by providing calories, protection, education. So from an evolutionary standpoint, it seems like there would be at least as much pressure to select intelligent, resourceful women . .women that can keep a kid alive. It seems to me that contemporary preferences are as likely the result of post-agricultural status symbols as inherent genetic desire. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/20 "2019-07-15T17:09:43Z")
Pickup artists and incels are two VASTLY different breeds. “Pick-up artist” as a phrase defines a certain Platonic ideal that seems like a douchebag, especially anyone who actively defines himself this way and especially those who market programs to other men and charge a lot of money for it. Within the world of “game”, eh, there are some really sociopathic types that have very misogynistic attitudes and callously use women, but there are also a lot of guys just trying to improve their dating skills in a focused and methodical way. I can’t really fault them for doing so, we live in a culture of casual sex, and guys who want to be single and play the field are naturally going to want to increase their chances of success. IMO, as a rule, the concept of game strategy is ok when its main focus is self-improvement (which a lot of men could really benefit from) and when it doesn’t veer into the territory of viewing women as just being marks to be conned. I feel like at least 50% of these guys fall into the latter category, but as for the ones who don’t, I wish them the best. They have a goal that they’re trying to achieve in a logical way, and as long as it’s all consensual, whatever. Incels are a different story. The whole subculture is a blight on society and it is literally a pressure cooker of violence. It scares me, seriously. I’ve only taken a cursory dip into their rabbit hole and that was enough for me…these guys are in need of serious guidance and role models, but in their echo chamber, all they have to provide that are other incels. _It is a black hole of negativity._ At least the PUAs are trying to do SOMETHING productive. The incels are just collectively digging deeper and deeper and deeper into a hole, and in the process, fostering obsessive-compulsive negative beliefs about their bodies, their faces, their height, the rest of society…one of the things I’ve learned from the therapist that I saw years ago to help with my own OCD issues was the concept of a negative feedback loop and how important it is to break it. Well, incel culture is about as much of a negative feedback loop as you can POSSIBLY have, and there’s NO attempt to break it, instead they are reveling in it. And every so often one of them is going to explode and kill people - it’s already happening. Incel is an incubator of psychopathy and destruction, every bit as bad as a cult or a religious fanatic organization. There is not a single thing in any of their beliefs that is right, or good, or useful in ANY way. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132.md?page=2)