# Is multiculturalism at odds with the welfare state **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120 "2017-09-12T01:18:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/21 "2017-09-13T09:21:15Z")
Anecdotal evidence incoming: I’m a second generation immigrant. I do not mind paying taxes to support the “natives,” as it were, of my adopted country, nor do I mind paying taxes to support its latest wave of immigrants. I believe that this sort of attitude is fairly widespread around these parts, and that there’s a good chance that the Scandinavian model will survive multiculturalism, at least in Sweden. The biggest current threat to the Scandinavian model is not, in my eyes, multiculturalism, but rather neo-liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/22 "2017-09-13T20:00:21Z")
The dividing lines in American society seems to run along the fault lines of race. Makes it fairly easy to peg people, there are some people where it is a bit uncertain if they are black or white, or Asian. But most people slot easily into a category with a glance. The fault lines in Europe are different, religon or ethnicity. And not so visible at all. As a result, when an American looks at a European country, he is likely to see a homogeneous society, regardless of whether it is or not. 80s Yugoslavia would look like a monocultural society that supported a strong welfare system, when looking for skin color as a fault line. Countries that are more diverse than the US while maintaining strong social systems include Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Estonia and Spain. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/23 "2017-09-13T20:10:13Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Countries that are more diverse than the US while maintaining strong social systems include Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Estonia and Spain. I am not sure how exactly you are measuring “diversity”. Estonia is 69% Estonians, 25% Russians and a sprinkling of others at 1% and below. Linguistically: first language Estonian 69%, Russian 30%, and all others below 1%. By religion - only 29% considered themselves as belonging to a religion, of those 90% Christians. How exactly is that more “diverse” than the US? Using what measure? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/24 "2017-09-13T21:51:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am not sure how exactly you are measuring “diversity”. > > Estonia is 69% Estonians, 25% Russians and a sprinkling of others at 1% and below. Linguistically: first language Estonian 69%, Russian 30%, and all others below 1%. By religion - only 29% considered themselves as belonging to a religion, of those 90% Christians. > > How exactly is that more “diverse” than the US? Using what measure? [This is the relevant paper, with the method](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=319762). It seems to be fairly well accepted, I didn’t find any competing methods with significant mention. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/25 "2017-09-14T00:20:46Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > [This is the relevant paper, with the method](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=319762). It seems to be fairly well accepted, I didn’t find any competing methods with significant mention. AFAIU, according to their formula, the ethnic “diversity” of Estonia, with 69% of population Estonians and 25% Russians (and the rest very small percentages) would be approximately 1 - Sqrt(0.69^2+0.25^2) = 0.27 - very low. Yet in the big table they claim it is 0.51 for Estonia. So something is wrong. You’re welcome to check my calcs against their paper. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/26 "2017-09-15T02:55:16Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Peter Beinart was on NPR recently and he mentioned how the welfare state (which I assume means social safety net, wealth redistribution, low GINI coefficient) is not compatible with multiculturalism. In a multicultural society, people start to feel angry and resentful about welfare or government intervention because they feel it is benefiting the ‘others’ who they feel are foreign or inferior. > > It is easy to see examples of this in the US when it comes to blacks and latinos, many dog whistle statements are made about how they benefit from welfare programs by people opposed to the programs. > > But is this argument that multiculturalism goes against the welfare state, or you need a racially and culturally homogeneous society to have a welfare state founded on valid social science? He used the example of the Scandinavian nations as homogeneous, which is accurate, but isn’t Canada kind of a melting pot and they have a decent welfare state? > > If it is true, can anything be done about it? Can you have a mixed society full of racial, religious & ethnic tension and still have a welfare state and redistribution of income? Because in the US non whites are seem has non cool in the eye of whites. And people in the US have a very strong hate for the welfare state not like most other first world countries. Also they see blacks and Hispanics being very different than white people and hate them. Yes just go to some of those poor southern states you see many poor whites some even in poverty and will vote other party just to hurt them self :eek::eek::eek: Why? Cause they see blacks and Hispanics being big problem in the US. They will have no problem being homeless or living in their car just because of the fear of blacks and Hispanic. And think blacks and Hispanic will make the US a third world country. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/27 "2017-09-16T08:19:23Z")
That’s just saying multiculturalism requires bigotry. Why would that be? The more multicultural parts of the U.S. tend to have less bigotry, since actually interacting with lots of people from other cultures tends to make it harder to hate a whole culture. In a multicultural society, I would expect fewer people to care if the welfare state was lopsided, because they’d be less likely to assume people of that culture were inherently inferior, and instead must actually need the help. That is, assuming that it even is noticeably lopsided. Ideally, it wouldn’t be, as multicultural would mean we’d be trying to reduce the unfairness of society that led to that state. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/28 "2017-09-16T09:51:58Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > AFAIU, according to their formula, the ethnic “diversity” of Estonia, with 69% of population Estonians and 25% Russians (and the rest very small percentages) would be approximately 1 - Sqrt(0.69^2+0.25^2) = 0.27 - very low. Yet in the big table they claim it is 0.51 for Estonia. So something is wrong. You’re welcome to check my calcs against their paper. Why do you think there is a _Sqrt_ in the formula? There is none in the Simpson or Herfindahl diversity indices nor AFAICT in the cited paper. Removing the Sqrt gets your example much closer to 0.51 though still not quite there. Where did you get the 69%/25% figures? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/29 "2017-09-16T13:32:13Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > AFAIU, according to their formula, the ethnic “diversity” of Estonia, with 69% of population Estonians and 25% Russians (and the rest very small percentages) would be approximately 1 - Sqrt(0.69^2+0.25^2) = 0.27 - very low. Yet in the big table they claim it is 0.51 for Estonia. So something is wrong. You’re welcome to check my calcs against their paper. I misread the formula. Let’s take a hypothetical country where only two ethnicities live, each at 50%. Would you consider that country “diverse”? The index would be 0.5. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120/30 "2017-09-16T14:32:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Canada is not a good example; it’s about 81% white… Wait, when did culture start equaling skin tone? People have never _needed_ to insert color into it, in order to be bigots. It’s just an excuse. If color isn’t available, bigots will grab onto language, religion or nose size. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-multiculturalism-at-odds-with-the-welfare-state/796120.md?page=1)