# Is murder, theft, or related offenses legal ANYWHERE in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165 "2012-05-17T03:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/1 "2012-05-17T03:19:43Z")
As in the title. Is there _any_ jurisdiction _anywhere in the world_ that one could travel where it is 100% legal to kill, steal, or do other things in that vein that are pretty much universally considered crimes? I am pretty much thinking about areas within the jurisdiction of a country rather than the high seas, Antarctica, or Space, because the law in those places is entangled in extraterritorial law. As a hypothetical, if a US Citizen traveled to some foreign country (or a jurisdiction in a foreign country) where it was 100% legal to beat people senseless and take their belongings, and then went on a “robbery” spree, would the US be able to exercise extraterritorial jurisdiction? Remember that this takes place in Outer Madhousistan and not on the high seas or some other location outside the territorial jurisdiction of a country. While rape and other sexual offenses can be considered in scope to this question, please do not make this a thread to _only_ discuss how some jurisdictions permit spousal rape while still considering stranger rape to be an offense. Also, we are primarily talking about the law in theory. I know that there are places in the world such as Somalia where the law is not necessarily enforced to any significant degree because of a general lack of government. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/2 "2012-05-17T05:19:45Z")
Unless you want to allow situations which the local law enforcement authorities would not consider murder, I doubt it. Or in a place with a breakdown of law and order like a war zone. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/3 "2012-05-17T05:27:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Unless you want to allow situations which the local law enforcement authorities would not consider murder, I doubt it. Or in a place with a breakdown of law and order like a war zone. Or how about jurisdictions that, while they may not permit all “murders”, they nevertheless allow things like _honor killings_ or _revenge killings_ based on sufficient cause, in such a circumstance that _no jurisdiction in the US would consider it justified_? For example, a jurisdiction where if John is over 180 days delinquent on a debt to Bill, that is sufficient cause for Bill to smack John in the head with a sledgehammer or riddle his body full of bullets and collect the money from his estate. I am interested if there is anywhere where this is actually legal in theory. I seem to recall that there are some countries where, while honor killings are not technically legal, the police will, in practice, look the other way as long as the killing was in keeping with community values. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/4 "2012-05-17T06:26:59Z")
Well you could include targeted drone attacks - seems just fine for the US to conduct them in Pakistan and Yemen according to US law. It’d be a totally different story if they took place in Massachusetts or Virginia… ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/5 "2012-05-17T06:33:48Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Well you could include targeted drone attacks - seems just fine for the US to conduct them in Pakistan and Yemen according to US law. It’d be a totally different story if they took place in Massachusetts or Virginia… Those are acts of war. It would be completely legal if Fredonia declared war on the United States, and the Fredonian People’s Army conducted drone attacks on military targets in the U.S.: that would not be a crime under United States law. (However, the peace-loving people of Fredonia might expect the United States to retaliate.) ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/6 "2012-05-17T06:36:25Z")
What war exists between the US and Yemen or Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/7 "2012-05-17T06:43:51Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > What war exists between the US and Yemen or Pakistan? None: The U.S. is fighting organisations like Al Qaida. Yemen or Pakistan could treat those attacks as constituting an act of war on the country, but they choose not to, for various practical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/8 "2012-05-17T06:46:52Z")
Very compelling practical reasons… ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/9 "2012-05-17T06:52:57Z")
Okay, so putting war and related conflicts aside, what about theft? Or robbery? Or rape? You know, the _other_ examples the OP included within the scope of his question. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/10 "2012-05-17T12:07:37Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > While rape and other sexual offenses can be considered in scope to this question, please do not make this a thread to _only_ discuss how some jurisdictions permit spousal rape while still considering stranger rape to be an offense. I hope this doesn’t sound like nitpicking, because I think it goes to the heart of your question. If it’s not illegal, it’s not murder. If it’s not illegal, it’s not rape. By definition. Even in your country, killing someone or having sex with someone may or may not be murder or rape, depending on circumstances and local laws. Same in Outer Madhousistan. So it may be that what you are really looking for is examples of actions that are legal in another jurisidiction while a) illegal in your jurisdiction and b) “obviously” criminal in your judgment. Spousal rape is probably an excellent example. “Honour” killings (if they are actually legal anywhere) would be another. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/11 "2012-05-17T12:14:55Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Those are acts of war. It would be completely legal if Fredonia declared war on the United States, and the Fredonian People’s Army conducted drone attacks on military targets in the U.S.: that would not be a crime under United States law. (However, the peace-loving people of Fredonia might expect the United States to retaliate.) Sounds like there should be a preemptive strike on Fredonia. Keep them in their place. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/12 "2012-05-17T12:15:44Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > Okay, so putting war and related conflicts aside, what about theft? Or robbery? Or rape? You know, the _other_ examples the OP included within the scope of his question. Theft is the _illegal_ taking of something just like murder is the _illegal_ taking of a life. So there probably aren’t places where theft and murder are legal. There might be some places where it is legal to use questionable eminent domain laws to take property from someone, or scam someone out of their bank account using questionable but legal techniques ETA: or take things held in the public as common goods for yourself without the permission of the community (such as flowers :)), but the classification of these as “theft” is a matter of morality and legality. The morality is debatable – some of these instances _are_ theft in my opinion. But if you were to post these as examples surely someone would say “That’s not theft – it’s completely by the book!” Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/13 "2012-05-17T12:17:49Z")
I’m certain that there is no place in the world with some sort of organised society in which murder and theft as such are legal, i. e. this is the law of the land. There are, however, countries in which traditions and customs play a very important role in every day life to the point where the government has little influence in certain situations and laws are simply not enforced. Things like honor killings come to mind. But one would rather consider this a symptom of a weak or even failed state. When the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, killing a woman was probably not considered a capital crime at all but would rather be treated as a (albeit severe) case of property damage (I haven’t checked this, but this would be my interpretation). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/14 "2012-05-17T12:17:53Z")
One story I read said that during the first Lebanese civil war in the late 70’s, spoilled pampered offspring of eastern Europe party officials would visit Beirut for the fun vacation activity of shooting random strangers near the green line with sniper rifles. Of course, that was more an issue of war zone, law and order breakdown, or whatever rather than legality. Similarly in the ungoverned areas of Somalia, piracy and hostage-taking seem to be acceptable activities. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/15 "2012-05-17T14:34:44Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > When the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, killing a woman was probably not considered a capital crime at all but would rather be treated as a (albeit severe) case of property damage (I haven’t checked this, but this would be my interpretation). Considering the Taliban began as a militia after the rape of several girls in Kandahar to punish warlords responsible I really really really doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/16 "2012-05-17T14:38:07Z")
On the issue of honour killing it should be pointed out that even liberal advanced oh so enlightened England, the classic common law example of the defense of provocation was and still is a person finding a spouse committing adultary with another. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/17 "2012-05-17T20:43:24Z")
Heck, in Florida it’s legal to kill someone threatening you, even if you could easily run away. That’s not legal in, say, Massachusetts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/18 "2012-05-17T21:00:21Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Heck, in Florida it’s legal to kill someone threatening you, even if you could easily run away. No, it’s not. That is a inaccurate summation of what the Stand Your Ground Law says. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/19 "2012-05-17T21:14:16Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > As a hypothetical, if a US Citizen traveled to some foreign country (or a jurisdiction in a foreign country) where it was 100% legal to beat people senseless and take their belongings, and then went on a “robbery” spree, would the US be able to exercise extraterritorial jurisdiction? Remember that this takes place in Outer Madhousistan and not on the high seas or some other location outside the territorial jurisdiction of a country. That’a an interesting question. Normally, the answer would “no”. But if a US citizen went on a killing spree, we might consider it to be an act of war, and send in the military to capture the guy. But this would have to be either a) with the permission of the local government or b) in case where there was no local government. > [@md2000](#): > > ``` > One story I read said that during the first Lebanese civil war in the late 70's, spoilled pampered offspring of eastern Europe party officials would visit Beirut for the fun vacation activity of shooting random strangers near the green line with sniper rifles. > > ``` I’d like to see a cite for that. > [@md2000](#): > > Similarly in the ungoverned areas of Somalia, piracy and hostage-taking seem to be acceptable activities. From the OP: > [@OP](#): > > I know that there are places in the world such as Somalia where the law is not necessarily enforced to any significant degree because of a general lack of government. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/20 "2012-05-17T21:29:43Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I hope this doesn’t sound like nitpicking, because I think it goes to the heart of your question. If it’s not illegal, it’s not murder. If it’s not illegal, it’s not rape. By definition. Even in your country, killing someone or having sex with someone may or may not be murder or rape, depending on circumstances and local laws. Same in Outer Madhousistan. > > So it may be that what you are really looking for is examples of actions that are legal in another jurisidiction while a) illegal in your jurisdiction and b) “obviously” criminal in your judgment. Spousal rape is probably an excellent example. “Honour” killings (if they are actually legal anywhere) would be another. That’s a very good point (if it’s not illegal it’s not murder/theft _by definition_). Shades of Harington’s famous quip (I always thought it was one of Shakespeare’s): Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165.md?page=2)