# Is murder, theft, or related offenses legal ANYWHERE in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165 "2012-05-17T03:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/21 "2012-05-17T21:35:31Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I hope this doesn’t sound like nitpicking, because I think it goes to the heart of your question. If it’s not illegal, it’s not murder. If it’s not illegal, it’s not rape. By definition. Even in your country, killing someone or having sex with someone may or may not be murder or rape, depending on circumstances and local laws. Same in Outer Madhousistan. > > So it may be that what you are really looking for is examples of actions that are legal in another jurisidiction while a) illegal in your jurisdiction and b) “obviously” criminal in your judgment. Spousal rape is probably an excellent example. “Honour” killings (if they are actually legal anywhere) would be another. Emphasis added. And you fell into the very trap you were trying to unset for the OP. 🙂 Shall we call it “spousal sex without consent”? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/22 "2012-05-17T21:41:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Sounds like there should be a preemptive strike on Fredonia. Keep them in their place. No, we’ll need some pretext, else we’ll lose diplomatic support. Why don’t we send an ambassador over and have him subtly insult their leader. Maybe make like he’d refuse to shake his hand or something. That’ll provoke them into a first strike. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/23 "2012-05-17T22:01:49Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I hope this doesn’t sound like nitpicking, because I think it goes to the heart of your question. If it’s not illegal, it’s not murder. If it’s not illegal, it’s not rape. By definition. Even in your country, killing someone or having sex with someone may or may not be murder or rape, depending on circumstances and local laws. Same in Outer Madhousistan. > > **So it may be that what you are really looking for is examples of actions that are legal in another jurisidiction while a) illegal in your jurisdiction and b) “obviously” criminal in your judgment. Spousal rape is probably an excellent example. “Honour” killings (if they are actually legal anywhere) would be another.** (emphasis mine) Yes, this is _exactly_ what I am looking for and _spousal rape and honor killings are good examples_. I am not aware of any first-world jurisdiction where there are legal. It’s much more fundamental than a local law banning fireworks where if you are unhappy with it, you can just move to a different jurisdiction where fireworks are legal and hardly anyone will point at you and tell you how immoral you must be for wanting to possess or use fireworks. I’m interested if there are any jurisdictions where such fundamental societal rules like “don’t kill someone except in bona-fide self defense or on direct orders from the Government” or “don’t take stuff that doesn’t belong to you without the owner’s permission” don’t apply, or where they apply only with exceptions that would be considered unacceptable in most areas of the world, for example a society where the law permits creditors to break and enter into delinquent debtors homes to seize property to satisfy the debt or simply put a bullet in their head and collect from their estate, where convicted felons do not have human rights and it is legal (actually legal, not just tolerated in practice) to hunt them for sport and killing them does not constitute murder under local law, or where if one unmarried person forces sex on another unmarried person, _it is not a crime unless the person who forced sex refuses to marry the “victim”_ (e.g., if J. Random HornyGuy forces sex on Suzy Innocent in the jurisdiction and Suzy complains to police, the police will ask JRH if he will marry Suzy, and if he says yes, he walks out of the police station a free man not because he has been forgiven, but because no crime cognizable under local law has been committed). ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/24 "2012-05-17T22:23:41Z")
The OP’s question is what always puzzled me about those who tout the 10 Commandments as being the basis for US law. Take away the ones that we explicitly did not make illegal (like taking God’s name in vain or honoring the Sabbath) and you have pretty much the same prohibitions as any other society in the world. It’s not as though Japan allows murder, or theft is legal in India. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/25 "2012-05-18T20:02:18Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Sounds like there should be a preemptive strike on Fredonia. Keep them in their place. Hey! I live in Fredonia! And it’s IN the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/26 "2012-05-18T20:58:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s not. That is a inaccurate summation of what the Stand Your Ground Law says. Feel free to add what you think is a more accurate summation. The point is, though, that there are circumstances in which killing someone would be legal in Florida, but murder/manslaughter in Massachusetts. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/27 "2012-05-18T22:23:08Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > Hey! I live in Fredonia! And it’s IN the United States. Seriously? Like what, Fredonia, Kansas? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/28 "2012-05-19T00:13:10Z")
Would the situations with ‘uncontacted tribes’ count? The [Sentinelese](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_people) Islanders have several times shot fishermen and others who came too close to their island. They are not treated as being under any external laws, and do not appear to count shooting anyone they don’t like the look of as a problem. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/29 "2012-05-19T00:42:17Z")
In the Federally Administered Tribal Area of Pakistan AFAIK it seems like it would not be illegal to kill someone who insulted your honor. At least under Pashtunwali (Pashtun tribal law) thats expected behavior. However the local Jirga (tribal council) would determine if the killing was murder (in which case the victims family might have the right to get revenge by killing you) or was Badal (an honorable revenge). ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/30 "2012-05-19T00:45:07Z")
I learned in an anthropology course that there’s an Inuit tribe somewhere where “everybody gets one” in terms of murder. You can kill one, and exactly one person with no penalty, any more and you get capital punishment. Sadly, I don’t recall enough of the specifics to produce a cite. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/31 "2012-05-19T02:08:20Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I learned in an anthropology course that there’s an Inuit tribe somewhere where “everybody gets one” in terms of murder. You can kill one, and exactly one person with no penalty, any more and you get capital punishment. Sadly, I don’t recall enough of the specifics to produce a cite. Interesting. I’d suppose though that they are living under the jurisdiction of the US, Canada, or Greenland, and so the “everyone gets one” rule would not necessarily be accepted by the local police station or the local courts. Could a Reservation in Alaska, say, have such an exception to normal State Law regarding the offense of “Murder”? If this was the rule before European settlement, then I would say that it would count in a historic sense. Does anyone else have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/32 "2012-05-19T02:43:57Z")
From what I’ve heard, part of Afghanistan have functioned in exactly this way for generations. Some acts that would be considered crimes in most countries and cultures, are considered acceptable behavior with certain categories of others, i.e. murder and theft from parties considered outsiders or enemies of your clan is not a crime and may in fact be laudable behavior. Is it “legal” under Afghanistan law? Probably not. Is it discouraged in those particular remote provinces? Apparently not. Could an outsider come in and live under those rules? Good question and I’d guess the answer would be “no” especially if he was not Muslim. I frankly think the outsider would be considered fair game rather than welcome to try those behaviors for himself. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/33 "2012-05-19T04:02:28Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > In the Federally Administered Tribal Area of Pakistan AFAIK it seems like it would not be illegal to kill someone who insulted your honor. At least under Pashtunwali (Pashtun tribal law) thats expected behavior. > > However the local Jirga (tribal council) would determine if the killing was murder (in which case the victims family might have the right to get revenge by killing you) or was Badal (an honorable revenge). That’s bullshit. And as I am from that area and my mother was a political agent, yeah I woukd know. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/34 "2012-05-19T05:49:34Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Seriously? Like what, Fredonia, Kansas? Yes, and yes. There are also at least a dozen more Fredonias in the country, including two in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/35 "2012-05-19T07:00:06Z")
> [@gunnergoz](#): > > From what I’ve heard, part of Afghanistan have functioned in exactly this way for generations. Some acts that would be considered crimes in most countries and cultures, are considered acceptable behavior with certain categories of others, i.e. murder and theft from parties considered outsiders or enemies of your clan is not a crime and may in fact be laudable behavior. Is it “legal” under Afghanistan law? Probably not. Is it discouraged in those particular remote provinces? Apparently not. Could an outsider come in and live under those rules? Good question and I’d guess the answer would be “no” especially if he was not Muslim. I frankly think the outsider would be considered fair game rather than welcome to try those behaviors for himself. Hmm, is that based on anything at all? Generally Afghanis take hospitality very seriously. I suspect that a Christian visitor to an Afghanistan village would be treated better than a Muslim in the US bible belt. ---
**Author:** ![Voluble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4af34b/32.png) [@Voluble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voluble)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/36 "2012-05-19T16:12:37Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > What war exists between the US and Yemen or Pakistan? I think you are talking about the tribal areas that are putatively in Pakistan but effectively outside the control of the government there. In other words it is lawless territory where terrorist organizations have chosen to hide. That there are elements in the Pakistani government that wish to keep it that way is another issue entirely. You can’t really declare war on a lawless territory so the US relies on the authorization of military force to go after organizations in those sorts of locations. I think you could make a much better case for the drone killing of a US citizen without trial or warrant in Anwar Al Awlaki though a “dead or alive” warrant had been issued for him by a Yemeni judge. That does nothing to satisfy US law but it does take it out of the bounds of the OP I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Voluble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4af34b/32.png) [@Voluble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voluble)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/37 "2012-05-19T16:22:40Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I’m certain that there is no place in the world with some sort of organised society in which murder and theft as such are legal, i. e. this is the law of the land. Taxation being theft I think quite the opposite is true. There is probably not a jurisdiction where theft is illegal. That is if you define theft as forcibly taking one’s possessions or resources against their will… which is really the only definition that makes any sense. If you rely on the legal definition then you are just begging the question since they could define theft however they like to exclude anything they wished. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/38 "2012-05-19T16:26:56Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Yes, this is _exactly_ what I am looking for and _spousal rape and honor killings are good examples_. I am not aware of any first-world jurisdiction where there are legal. You do realize, though, that “spousal rape” laws are fairly recent things. They’re not a result of a longstanding obvious fundamental socal rule. England and Wales made non-consensual sex with your spouse illegal in 1991, North Carolina, the last US state to do so, in 1993, and Germany in 1997. Some of the earliest states to do it were countries like the Soviet Union in the 1920s, and Poland in 1932. So this concept that just because you’re married to somebody you can’t have sex with them whenever you want isn’t a longstanding one. It’s something that’s developed within living memory, and not one of those things that’s just “obvious”. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/39 "2012-05-19T18:10:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That’s bullshit. And as I am from that area and my mother was a political agent, yeah I woukd know. cite please. Yeah I know you live in Pakistan… does the FATA areas run under Pakistan law… no they don’t. Please give me a cite to the exact criminal codes they do accept? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165/40 "2012-05-19T20:23:09Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > cite please. Yeah I know you live in Pakistan… does the FATA areas run under Pakistan law… no they don’t. Please give me a cite to the exact criminal codes they do accept? FATA (like all territories of Pakistan) is governed directly by the President of Pakistan who exercises both executive and legislative authority and is authorised to make laws regarding the local executive, legislature and judiciary. The administration of FATA is undertaken by the [FATA Secretariat](http://fata.gov.pk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=61). These are staffed by Civil Servants selected from the [Central Superior Service](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Superior_Services_of_Pakistan). The Judicial power is based upon the FATA Tribunals and the FATA Appellate Tribunal, whose judgements can be reviewed by the I[Islamabad High Court](http://www.ihc.gov.pk/) and ultimately the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The Current criminal law applicable to FATA is the Frontier Crimes Regulations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murder-theft-or-related-offenses-legal-anywhere-in-the-world/622165.md?page=3)