# Is Murdering People Inherently 'Wrong'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544 "2005-02-23T16:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/41 "2005-03-02T00:08:27Z")
I’d say murder has to be inherently wrong, because otherwise the only determinant is the law, which would then have no underlying moral or ethical basis. Proceeding along these lines, we’d be forced to conclude that arbitrary, nonsensical laws associated with outrageous and cruel punishments were perfectly acceptable simply because they are the law. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/42 "2005-03-02T03:12:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve given me no reason to revise my comment. I didn’t see this post. I’m selfish because…I care about others’ happiness? > [@Marley23](#): > > But if I have no friends or family, we’re okay. So as long as you pick people without friends and kill them painlessly, that’s morally neutral. Unlike hurting someone without killing them, which is bad. Yes, that’s what I’ve been getting at. You seem to have a problem with that. And please, don’t use the pronoun ‘you’. I would not kill somebody. Even if I did, it would fill me with angst and whatnot, making me unhappy. 😉 The thing is, rarely will you actually have a situation where there is absolutely no effect. In the OP’s situation, the mother would probably feel some regret and be charged for infanticide. Those are bad. Practically speaking, there would be no situation in which killing someone would have no effect. And it would be a lot easier to argue my point if you told me what problem you have with my system. And should I start a new thread, or shall we continue this in here? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/43 "2005-03-02T05:58:04Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > I’m selfish because…I care about others’ happiness? You don’t care about others’ happiness. You’ve defined human life as worthless unless other humans care about the life. Which doesn’t really make sense - if a human life has no inherent worth, why does it matter if the life is cared about? > [@](#): > > Yes, that’s what I’ve been getting at. You seem to have a problem with that. Uh, I actually _do_ have a problem with it. > [@](#): > > And please, don’t use the pronoun ‘you’. I would not kill somebody. It was a general you. Sorry about that. > [@](#): > > Even if I did, it would fill me with angst and whatnot, making me unhappy. 😉 Ah. So in effect, you would be wronging yourself by killing another person because it would make you unhappy, but you would not be wronging the person you killed by making them dead. **Are you seriously telling me that’s not selfish?** > [@](#): > > And it would be a lot easier to argue my point if you told me what problem you have with my system. I think I’ve been pretty clear about it. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/44 "2005-03-02T22:11:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t care about others’ happiness. Sure, I do. > [@](#): > > You’ve defined human life as worthless unless other humans care about the life. Which doesn’t really make sense - if a human life has no inherent worth, why does it matter if the life is cared about? Because a person’s worth is determined by the people that care about him. Just because it’s not inherent doesn’t mean that it can’t exist. The same thing applies to the OP’s question. “Is murdering people inherently ‘wrong’?” No, but in any real, practical, non-hypothetical situation it is wrong, just not inherently so. Basically what **SentientMeat** said. > [@](#): > > Ah. So in effect, you would be wronging yourself by killing another person because it would make you unhappy, but you would not be wronging the person you killed by making them dead. **Are you seriously telling me that’s not selfish?** Are you selfish because you don’t give _all_ of your money to charity? You care about yourself. That doesn’t make you selfish unless you care about only yourself. So let’s see here on a scale from -10 to 10 **The victim:** 0 because s/he’s dead. No happiness nor unhappiness. **Everyone else:** 0 because they don’t care about the victim. **Myself:** A negative number, not sure exactly how low because I would not like to kill someone. 0 + 0 + (-somesuch) = -somesuch less than zero, so it’s bad. Now let’s suppose a different scenario. I’m sadistic and take pleasure in killing, but the victim has family and friends. Same scale **The victim:** 0 because s/he’s dead. No happiness nor unhappiness. **Everyone else:** -50 because they loved the victim and are now sad. It’s less than -10 because s/he had more than one friend and family member. **Myself:** 5 because I’m sadistic and derive pleasure from killing 0 + (-50) + 5 = -45 less then zero, so it’s bad. > [@](#): > > Uh, I actually _do_ have a problem with it. > … > I think I’ve been pretty clear about it. Because you think I’m selfish? Because you think murdering is inherently wrong? I hope that I’ve been able to convince you that the former is false. As for the latter, I don’t think I could convince you nor you me. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/45 "2005-03-02T22:19:29Z")
Yeah, but according to this logic, a psychopath who murders homeless friendless bums is increasing net happiness, and so should be encouraged. Bum: 0, he’s dead Everyone else: 0, since no one cares about the bum Pyscho: +5 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/46 "2005-03-02T22:24:36Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Are you selfish because you don’t give _all_ of your money to charity? You care about yourself. That doesn’t make you selfish unless you care about only yourself. I have no idea how this applies to my question. You’ve created a scenario in which you could kill someone and it would _only be bad because it makes you feel bad_. To you, the human life you would be taking has less value than your own happiness. > [@](#): > > I hope that I’ve been able to convince you that the former is false. You haven’t. I wonder if selfish isn’t exactly the right word, but you haven’t convinced me of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/47 "2005-03-02T22:48:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To you, the human life you would be taking has less value than your own happiness. Only happiness has value. A person can have ‘worth’ if they make others happy. If someone doesn’t make others happy, they have no ‘worth’. So a guy is killed. If no one cares about him then it is morally neutral. If no one cares about him but the killer can’t believe he actually just killed someone and feels bad the act is morally wrong. > [@](#): > > I wonder if selfish isn’t exactly the right word, Unless selfish means “caring about other people as well as yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/48 "2005-03-02T23:15:05Z")
OK, here’s the way to change the argument, even given Strinka’s axiom. Why do you assign the dead guy a value of 0? Sure, he’s dead, so now he has a value of 0 happiness. But BEFORE he was dead, he probably had a positive happiness value. So he went from +5 to 0. That’s a net decrease in happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/49 "2005-03-02T23:30:42Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Only happiness has value. A person can have ‘worth’ if they make others happy. Why does happiness have value? Why does it matter if people are happy? You’ve said their lives have no inherent value, so why are their feelings relevant? > [@](#): > > If no one cares about him then it is morally neutral. I’m very glad our justice system doesn’t function like you do. > [@](#): > > If no one cares about him but the killer can’t believe he actually just killed someone and feels bad the act is morally wrong. If the killer feels remorse, the killing was wrong, but if he is happy, the killing is morally positive. You already made this clear. You’re repeating yourself, not explaining things. What is the justification for all this? > [@](#): > > Unless selfish means “caring about other people as well as yourself.” You don’t care about other people, you care if they make other people happy. This is morally equivalent to “everybody else is doing it, so I will too.” ---
**Author:** ![cnelson711](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ab097/32.png) [@cnelson711](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cnelson711)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/50 "2005-03-03T19:01:12Z")
Although nobody’s ever made a supreme court claus out of it, all U.S. citizens are entitled to the rights of “life, liberty, and the persuit of happyness” so murder goes against the Constitution. However, abortion is yet to be decided in my mind, because tiny tots aren’t U.S. citizens until they are born. I’d hate to draw a parallel cause I’d like the embryos to have the chance to grow up, but would the Constitution protect an immigrant that was murdered in his country if he was going to apply for a U.S. citizenship in 9 months. I guess it depends on how moral and philosophical our leaders are. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/51 "2005-03-03T21:44:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why does happiness have value? Why does it matter if people are happy? You’ve said their lives have no inherent value, so why are their feelings relevant? People like being happy. People dislike being unhappy. How else would you value something less arbitrarily? > [@Marley23](#): > > If the killer feels remorse, the killing was wrong, but if he is happy, the killing is morally positive. You already made this clear. You’re repeating yourself, not explaining things. What is the justification for all this? Happiness is good, unhappiness is bad. I expect that you won’t like that justification but that is as simple as I can say it. > [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t care about other people, you care if they make other people happy. This is morally equivalent to “everybody else is doing it, so I will too.” Now, I think I see where you’re coming for this one. If I value happiness how can killing someone and destoying their ability to feel happiness ever again be neutral? Because, I don’t know that they will be happy again and I am also destroying their ability to feel unhappiness. For all I know their life would have been utterly horrible otherwise. > [@Lemur866](#): > > Why do you assign the dead guy a value of 0? Sure, he’s dead, so now he has a value of 0 happiness. But BEFORE he was dead, he probably had a positive happiness value. So he went from +5 to 0. That’s a net decrease in happiness. This is a very good point. I thought of this independently, just today. I just haven’t seen you post before now nor been able to post. I agree. Killing someone who is happy is evil. Of course, that means killing someone uhappy is good. (I’m sure **Marley23** will just love that.) But why do you say he probably had a positive happiness? I would say it would be roughly equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/52 "2005-03-03T22:59:29Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Because, I don’t know that they will be happy again and I am also destroying their ability to feel unhappiness. For all I know their life would have been utterly horrible otherwise. You’re just assuming that. In a sense I can’t blame you, because you have to assume that to make that system work. But it’s still pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/53 "2005-03-03T23:00:40Z")
The reason being that people would rather be unhappy than dead. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/54 "2005-03-04T23:12:45Z")
If someone was so unhappy that they would be better off dead, they are perfectly able to achieve that state without your help. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/55 "2005-03-04T23:16:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re just assuming that. In a sense I can’t blame you, because you have to assume that to make that system work. But it’s still pretty weak. Assuming what? That they won’t be able to feel unhappiness when dead? Yes, I’m assuming that but it seems reasonable. And if you assume they can feel unhappiness when dead, surely they can feel happiness too? If you were refering to the other sentence that you quoted - “For all I know their life would have been utterly horrible otherwise.” That is not an assumption; notice the first four words. > [@Marley23](#): > > The reason being that people would rather be unhappy than dead. That’s a good point. Let me think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/56 "2005-03-05T00:12:36Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Assuming what? That they won’t be able to feel unhappiness when dead? Yes, I’m assuming that but it seems reasonable. No, I’m talking about the “for all I know” bit. It remains an assumption despite those words. It’s a kind of argument from ignorance - ‘I don’t know if they would be happy or miserable, so on the balance the odds are equally good and killing them is a neutral act.’ Anyway someone living a miserable life may still experience happy moments. Are you the one weighing the pluses and minuses here? If not, who is? ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/57 "2005-03-05T02:21:54Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > That’s a good point. Let me think about it. OK, I have thought about it and come to a conclusion. Now, I can’t speak for other people, because I don’t understand other people, but I can speak for myself. I would rather be uhappy than dead out of consideration of others. I believe that once I die I will never feel happy or unhappy again, which is better than unhappiness. However, if I die, those close to me will be unhappy. So, if my death wouldn’t affect anyone else I might think it better to die than be unhappy. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, I’m talking about the “for all I know” bit. It remains an assumption despite those words. It’s a kind of argument from ignorance - ‘I don’t know if they would be happy or miserable, so on the balance the odds are equally good and killing them is a neutral act.’ Anyway someone living a miserable life may still experience happy moments. Are you the one weighing the pluses and minuses here? If not, who is? Why does someone have to weigh them? Quantum and relativistic physics aside, if I measure something, someone else measures it or no one measures it at all, it is still going to be the same every time. In the same manner there will still be a net good or bad caused by an action even if no one figures out what it is. Also, to clarify, an action’s morality is not determined by the difference between the happiness after the action and the happiness if the action hadn’t been taken, but rather between the happiness after the action and before the action. This is because we don’t know what would have happened. If what I said before seemed to indicate otherwise, that is because I, myself, was a bit confused about that point before. But no longer. Now given that, it is possible to imagine a hypothetical situation in which killing is not wrong, however, in any practical, realistic scenario, that will not be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/58 "2005-03-05T02:34:51Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Why does someone have to weigh them? I’m not trying to turn this into a quantum physics thing. I’m just asking- are you determining the happiness of the people in question, or are they? > [@](#): > > Also, to clarify, an action’s morality is not determined by the difference between the happiness after the action and the happiness if the action hadn’t been taken, but rather between the happiness after the action and before the action. This is because we don’t know what would have happened. Right, that’s what I said about arguing from ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/59 "2005-03-05T02:57:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not trying to turn this into a quantum physics thing. I’m just asking- are you determining the happiness of the people in question, or are they? It shouldn’t matter. If I were to determine their happiness, I would do that by asking them, yielding the same results > [@](#): > > Right, that’s what I said about arguing from ignorance. Yes, if one were comparing how they would feel after the action was done and if the action hadn’t been performed at all, but one is not. One is comparing how they feel before the action and after the action. No ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544/60 "2005-03-06T03:55:21Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > One is comparing how they feel before the action and after the action. No ignorance. Do you know what the term means? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-murdering-people-inherently-wrong/291544.md?page=4)