# Is mutilation of children a defensible religious custom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891 "2006-02-10T18:56:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/1 "2006-02-10T18:56:35Z")
I would like someone to tell me how the mutilation of children during the celebration of the Muslim holiday of Ashoura is justifiable. I am talking about an Associated Press picture which was published with the following caption: > [@](#): > > A Shiite Muslim man comforts his crying baby, stained by his own blood, after he was slashed on the head during Ashoura day in the southern market town of Nabatiyeh, Lebanon, Thursday, Feb. 9, 2006. Ashoura day is the remembrance of the 680 A.D. battle in which their saint and grandson of Islam’s prophet Muhammad, Hussein, was killed by rivals cementing the split in Islam between Shiites and Sunnis. _(AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari)_ To view the photo, [click here](http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3492884), and open the photo gallery labeled, " Muslims mourn martyr Imam Hussein", and click on slide #11. I understand that there is a vast cultural difference between Islam and the West, and there are probably some things they find revolting in our society. But is there anything that can justify the mutilation of child in the name of religion? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/2 "2006-02-10T19:13:35Z")
Unlike the other photo captions, this one does NOT say the wound was intentionally inflicted. Assuming from Dad’s proud smile that it was, I’ll merely point out that I, like many others, am circumsized, which has caused a more drastic change in my appearance than a cut on the scalp is going to cause that child. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/3 "2006-02-10T19:18:44Z")
I opened this thinking it would be about circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/4 "2006-02-10T20:48:56Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I’ll merely point out that I, like many others, am circumsized > [@bup](#): > > I opened this thinking it would be about circumcision. I am circumcised. I have also had a cancerous testicle removed. Both procedures were done in a hospital, by a doctor, for health reasons. Neither was done in the street, by a family member, with a sword, to commemorate a religious figure who died 1300 years ago. I see a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/5 "2006-02-10T20:59:23Z")
Well, I’ve only been to one bris, but it was in my friend’s backyard. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/6 "2006-02-10T21:04:33Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I am circumcised. I have also had a cancerous testicle removed. Both procedures were done in a hospital, by a doctor, for health reasons. Neither was done in the street, by a family member, with a sword, to commemorate a religious figure who died 1300 years ago. I see a difference. Most people’s circumcisions aren’t done for health reasons. Plenty are done because their religion commands it. I’d rather be cut on the skin of my forehead than the head of my foreskin. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/7 "2006-02-10T21:04:53Z")
I don’t think that this is mutilation… it seems unlikely to me to cause any kind of irreperable damage to the child. As others have said, this doesn’t strike me as being significantly worse than circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/8 "2006-02-10T21:12:14Z")
There’s no particular harm involved, and of course, it marks members of a soecific society from the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/9 "2006-02-10T21:30:44Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > There’s no particular harm involved… The child doesn’t look too happy about it. Is inflicting pain and anxiety on children acceptable if it is for a pious reason? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/10 "2006-02-10T21:32:21Z")
It might almost be said that mutilation of children is a \*universal \* religious custom. There are tons of examples that come to mind – circumcision, scarification, tattooing, teeth filing, head-flattening… it’s a long list. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/11 "2006-02-10T21:34:40Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The child doesn’t look too happy about it. Is inflicting pain and anxiety on children acceptable if it is for a pious reason? Well, now that we get down to it, no, not IMO. I can’t believe God created us in His image and then wants us to disfigure it. Nor that God gets jollies from inflicting pain on kids. However, if you want to be on this side of the debate, I think you need to acknowledge that we in the West do something that is arguably worse (since the change is permanent). ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/12 "2006-02-10T21:37:32Z")
Well I think circumcision is barbaric no matter how you dress it up. This looks equally as backward and pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/13 "2006-02-10T21:40:30Z")
> [@bup](#): > > However, if you want to be on this side of the debate, I think you need to acknowledge that we in the West do something that is arguably worse (since the change is permanent). Arguable, perhaps. But, please, not in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/14 "2006-02-10T21:58:50Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Arguable, perhaps. But, please, not in this thread. Um… > [@Fear Itself](#): > > But is there anything that can justify the mutilation of child in the name of religion? I don’t know what would be more appropriate to argue about in this thread. If we’re only allowed to talk about the forehead slashing, and then decide whether _anything_ can justify mutilation in the name of religion, are we just supposed to say ‘No’ and cluck sanctimoniously? People mutilate their babies for much less compelling reasons than religion, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/15 "2006-02-10T22:06:39Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The child doesn’t look too happy about it. Is inflicting pain and anxiety on children acceptable if it is for a pious reason? Inflicting pain and anxiety in your child is pretty much an unavoidable side-effect of having a kid. Sending a kid to his first day of school causes quite a bit of anxiety, for example. And tetnus shots hurt like a sonuvabitch. Of course, being educated and not getting lockjaw are objectively good things, whereas a religious ceremony is of debatable value. It’s certainly not something I’d subject my kid too, what with me being an atheist and all, but the fact that this father did it to his kid does not mean that he’s a cruel or abusive parent. _He_ sees value in the ceremony, and odds are, he’s going to pass that value on to the kid, so when he’s older, he’ll probably see the same value in it, as opposed to viewing it as a traumatizing event. I don’t see any long term harm in it, so it’s probably not worth getting too torqued up about. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/16 "2006-02-10T22:25:59Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I don’t know what would be more appropriate to argue about in this thread. I can understand that, but if we fling the doors open to the **circumcision: good or bad** debate, the context of other religious mutilations will be hopelessly lost. I might as well say Macintosh’s suck… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/17 "2006-02-11T00:52:25Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > teeth filing After a quick glance, my first thought was “geez, why is dental treatment considered mutilation?” ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/18 "2006-02-11T01:38:40Z")
> [@bup](#): > > People mutilate their babies for much less compelling reasons than religion, anyway. Try going on a parenting board and asking for opinions about piercing babies’ ears… ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/19 "2006-02-11T01:52:51Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > But is there anything that can justify the mutilation of child in the name of religion? Mutilation? Don’t you think thats a tad bit extreme? The child recieved a small cut on his head. Thats certainly no crueler than dunking a kid in water making him think he is drowning. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891/20 "2006-02-11T02:04:20Z")
Ha, so everybody thought this was going to about our own big child mutilation tradition (including me). Turns out this is a textbook one those mote/plank situations that Jesus talked about. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mutilation-of-children-a-defensible-religious-custom/343891.md?page=2)