# Is my (IBM version) iTunes misbehaving, or is this a common thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 17, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076 "2012-04-17T19:13:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/1 "2012-04-17T19:13:00Z")
Yesterday [I Pitted iTunes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=648551) because it doesn’t know how to sort properly. For instance, when I sort by title in ascending order, songs that start with “I’ve …” come before songs that start with “I …” The same goes for other contractions “That’s” comes before “That” and so on. Anyway a few people have responded and said that’s not how their iTunes sorts, or suggested that I somehow don’t know what I’m doing or talking about. [So I posted a screen shot](http://www.flickr.com/photos/12544059@N03/7087810205/in/photostream/lightbox/) that shows the sort order by the arrow on the column header, and the portion of the list where my “I’ve” songs precede my “I” songs. I find it difficult to believe my iTunes has been malfunctioning consistently like this for several years, a dozen or more upgrades, and three different computers. But I seem to be getting more confusion or denial of the problem, so could it be just my iTunes and computers? As I said, I have the IBM version – I have no idea if the Mac version looks, sorts or works any differently. FYI, there is nothing in the “sort” fields for these song titles, so they are sorting exactly as their spelling in the display fields. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/2 "2012-04-17T19:17:58Z")
LOL @ “IBM” version! ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/3 "2012-04-17T19:18:54Z")
Mine does that too. I’m before I, It’s before It. I am on the “IBM” version or as commonly known in this millennium, the Windows version 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/4 "2012-04-17T19:24:12Z")
That’s how mine sorts. Maybe I’m an idiot, but that’s how I expect it to sort. As far as I know, non-numerical characters precede numerical characters. I don’t know the ‘official’ ordering, but numbers precede letters and punctuation also precede them. I want to say that numbers precede punctuation, but I’m not certain. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/5 "2012-04-17T19:25:20Z")
Whatever, I’ve had one since 1985 and DOS, and I’m sure a lot of my nomenclature is dated. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/6 "2012-04-17T19:26:40Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Mine does that too. I’m before I, It’s before It. > > I am on the “IBM” version or as commonly known in this millennium, the Windows version 🙂 I don’t thnk that’s correct. ‘I’m’ would precede ‘I am’, but the word with fewer letters - I - would precede the one with more - I’m. Same with It and It’s. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/7 "2012-04-17T19:32:33Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > I don’t thnk that’s correct. ‘I’m’ would precede ‘I am’, but the word with fewer letters - I - would precede the one with more - I’m. Same with It and It’s. I don’t understand any connection between the quote you cited and the response you made. I don’t even understand your answer in its own. Should “I” precede or follow “I’m”? I think “I” should be first. iTunes doesn’t. FWIW, Excel agrees with me. if you sort the same list in Excel, it sorts the way I expect, and not the way iTunes sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/8 "2012-04-17T20:16:40Z")
My ENIAC version of iTunes sorts correctly, but it takes a really long time. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/9 "2012-04-17T20:27:59Z")
Hadn’t noticed this before, but mine also sorts “I’m” before “I”. This would drive me insane if I didn’t keep my library sorted by album, where it (thankfully) isn’t an issue. And as long as we’re riding you about it, I also got a chuckle out of the IBM thing in your Pit thread, **Boyo** …but you got your revenge in the same stroke, because it made me feel old for having perfectly understood it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/10 "2012-04-17T20:37:20Z")
I suggest pulling out the iTunes cartridge and blowing in the end of it a few times. Should clear things up. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/11 "2012-04-17T20:41:47Z")
FWIW, I just plugged in some titles into this [Alphabetizer website](http://alphabetizer.flap.tv/index.php) and it spits out the same order as iTunes. > [@](#): > > A Hard Day’s Night > I’d like to buy the world a song > I’m a Rock > I Have a Feeling ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/12 "2012-04-18T00:26:31Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > FWIW, I just plugged in some titles into this [Alphabetizer website](http://alphabetizer.flap.tv/index.php) and it spits out the same order as iTunes. This is interesting. [In this other alphabetizer](http://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetize-text-words.php) I found, if you put in “I I’m I’ve” and sort, it leaves the order as is. If you put in “I’ve I’m I” and and sort, it reverses their order. But it doesn’t do lists. Still, it appears to sort the opposite of how yours sorts words with contractions. Geez, I think I need to do a GQ question as to whether there is a generally accepted standard for alphabetizing titles beginning with contractions. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/13 "2012-04-18T00:50:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > This is interesting. [In this other alphabetizer](http://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetize-text-words.php) I found, if you put in “I I’m I’ve” and sort, it leaves the order as is. If you put in “I’ve I’m I” and and sort, it reverses their order. But it doesn’t do lists… I got this wrong. If you specify a line break separator, it does lists, and it puts I before I’m. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/14 "2012-04-18T07:26:42Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > That’s how mine sorts. > > Maybe I’m an idiot, but that’s how I expect it to sort. As far as I know, non-numerical characters precede numerical characters. I don’t know the ‘official’ ordering, but numbers precede letters and punctuation also precede them. I want to say that numbers precede punctuation, but I’m not certain. I’ve personally never heard of an alphabetizing system that puts “I’ve” or “I’m” before “I”. There are only two relevant systems i am familiar with: one that ignores spaces and punctuation, and one that gives spaces top priority. So either it would be “I am”, “I’m”, “I was” or “I am”, “I was”, “I’m”. EDIT: I remember a third that treats all abbreviations and contractions (and numbers) as if they were spelled out, but I’ve not seen it used ever. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/15 "2012-04-18T13:26:19Z")
I LOL’ed at “IBM version” too. ---
**Author:** ![Belrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@Belrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belrix)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/16 "2012-04-18T16:04:16Z")
Geesh, guys. It’s doing an ASCII sort, sorting by characters rather than words. “I \” sorts before “I \” because the space is ASCII character 32 while an apostrophe is character code 39. Since 32 is less than 39, it sorts before it. It’s traditional for computer stuff do to it this way. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/17 "2012-04-18T16:10:43Z")
> [@Belrix](#): > > Geesh, guys. It’s doing an ASCII sort, sorting by characters rather than words. > > “I \” sorts before “I \” because the space is ASCII character 32 while an apostrophe is character code 39. Since 32 is less than 39, it sorts before it. > > It’s traditional for computer stuff do to it this way. Except it’s NOT doing that. "In iTunes, “I \” sorts AFTER “I \”. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/18 "2012-04-18T17:26:05Z")
After closer inspection I see your point. It does seem counter-intuitive. I wonder why Apple did that. However, this is a tiny problem. First, there’s few songs that have apostrophes in the first word. And for that remaining set of songs, it’s easy to remember how iTunes sorts and just work around it. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/19 "2012-04-18T17:31:12Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > I LOL’ed at “IBM version” too. Heh, me too. I’m like “hello person who’s at least my age!” ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076/20 "2012-04-18T17:45:21Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Except it’s NOT doing that. "In iTunes, “I \” sorts AFTER “I \”. I just tested this on the Mac version of iTunes, and I’m seeing the opposite behavior, then tested on the Windows version, and I see what you see. So, it looks like the Windows (IBM) version of iTunes sorts punctuation before spaces. Not a problem with your particular install, just an inconsistency. Possibly a bug, but I don’t know how standardized sorting based on punctuation is anyway. iTunes already strays from a strict character sort, because they ignore the initial “The” in titles. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-ibm-version-itunes-misbehaving-or-is-this-a-common-thing/619076.md?page=2)