# Is "My Liege" still correct for addressing British Nobility & Royalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876 "2010-03-18T13:43:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/41 "2010-03-20T06:02:39Z")
So when do I use “Sire”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/42 "2010-03-20T06:16:47Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > > [@sassyfras](#): > > > > Since my experience of seeing English (UK, blah blah) royalty and nobility is limited to decades old BBC productions of Shakespeare, if I were to meet a noble or monarch of that Isle… > > How interesting that you seem to see the difference between England and the U.K, as being merely “blah, blah”. So, the fighting against ignorance still has some way to go, it seems. Oh-oh **sassyfrass** , looks like you pissed off the Scots! 😉 Actually, **Celyn** , my impression was that the OP’s use of “English” instead of “British” in that sentence was inspired by the specific context of **Shakespearean** England. And thus the “blah, blah” was meant more or less as shorthand for “Yes, I’m aware that the modern-day state in which the monarchy and aristocracy I’m talking about here are preserved is called the United Kingdom rather than England.” Note, in support of this interpretation, that the OP correctly used “British” rather than “English” in the thread title. Well, that’s enough of my interpretations for one evening I think; good night, gentles all. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/43 "2010-03-20T08:27:32Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > So when do I use “Sire”? When you aren’t talking about the bitch. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Years later he was made a CB. His rubber ducky is, however, bent, owing to an unfortunate incident at a truckstop in Tupelo. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/44 "2010-03-20T14:38:00Z")
This is what a CB is: > **[Order of the Bath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Bath)** > > The Most Honourable Order of the Bath is a British order of chivalry founded by King George I on 18 May 1725. The name derives from the elaborate medieval ceremony for appointing a knight, of which bathing (as a symbol of purification) was an element. Knights so created were known as 'Knights of the Bath'. George I constituted the Knights of the Bath a regular 'Military Order'. He did not revive the Order of the Bath, which had not previously existed as an Order, in the sense o The Order c... ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/45 "2010-03-20T18:10:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ooh ooh, I know this! The correct form for direct address in speech would be “Lord Greenback” at the initial address, and “my lord” subsequently. “My lord”? Just as we’ve discussed, he’s not _my_ lord. I don’t work in his house or on his estate, and I’m not feudally bound to him in return for a small province inclusive of people, buildings and animals. If I meet him as a social equal, which these days is just about everyone except his grounds and house servants, if any, wouldn’t I simply go on calling him Lord Greenback, as I might address his younger brother Mr. Whatever? Then, as noted eventually Greenback, on the same circumstance as when I might drop the Mr. in talking to his brother? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/46 "2010-03-20T18:20:19Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > No, he inherited it after the hereditary Peers were expelled from the House so he’s still eligible. Also, eldest sons of higher peers, almost invariably have and may be known by their own titles, like the Earl of Brideshead in _Brideshead Revisited_, but those are only courtesy titles. Those individuals are legally still commoners, so even before the changes they were allowed to be MPs. It’s mentioned near the end of the novel as something which the Earl might have done as a career, but had come to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/47 "2010-03-20T18:28:54Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Our managing director is “Lord (i.e Baron) Carter of Coles” for official functions, but “Patrick” when he’s in the office. Is he a Life Peer? Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but these days don’t most Life Peers use their birth last name as their titles, like Baron Olivier and Lord Black? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/48 "2010-03-20T20:45:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Subject to correction by Lord **Greenback** , I would venture to guess that the phrase “she’s a bit of a stern mentalist” might be a delicate way of conveying the same notion implied by the more familiar American euphemism “cranio-rectal inversion”. See, “stern” in the sense of… oh never mind, you get the idea. No, no not at all. 😃 She’s stern in the sense of having a somewhat forbidding visage, and a mentalist in that she is not wired up in _quite_ the same way as most other people. I suspect all of the Royals will be like this, product of bizarre upbringing I suppose, and it’s hard to describe her otherness, it’s just _there_. She is very nice though, and surprisingly chatty. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/49 "2010-03-20T20:49:01Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Those individuals are legally still commoners, so even before the changes they were allowed to be MPs. The commoner thing is a bit odd, really, and often misunderstood\*: technically Princes William and Harry are commoners. \*not by you I hasten to add. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/50 "2010-03-20T21:07:21Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I apologize, Baron Greenback (or should I address you by some other title?), but you’ve got to understand how confusing the SDMB can be at times. You can call me anything you like sweet-cheeks. 😉 Point taken, though. I’m going to guess that you are more comfortable with newsgroup-style threading? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/51 "2010-03-20T21:08:50Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > What is a “peer?” Someone who urinates. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/52 "2010-03-20T22:12:48Z")
No, I’ve seen other styles of threading, but I’ve been on the SDMB long enough that I know its style much better. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/53 "2010-03-20T23:42:43Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The commoner thing is a bit odd, really, and often misunderstood\*: technically Princes William and Harry are commoners. I did actually have this wrong; I thought as Charles’ sons they would be considered princes by blood; in short that Royalty is a slightly different animal than just plain old Nobility. It’s true that Princess Anne’s children are commoners, but I thought that was because she herself married a commoner and declined to have a title bestowed on her husband and children. Interestingly, even though Peter and Zara Phillips are commoners they retain their places in the line of succession to the throne, 11 and 12 respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/54 "2010-03-20T23:44:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Someone who urinates. And, as someone here pointed out recently, the ones who get peed on are the peeees. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/55 "2010-03-22T01:42:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > My fellow Americans, I earnestly counsel you, do not try to learn this stuff. We fought two wars so we wouldn’t have to learn this stuff, although we pretended it was about taxation and George III and expansion of territory and all those more respectable-sounding reasons. On the rare occasions that you would actually have to know how to address a member of the nobility nowadays, you can look it up in advance. Oh, come on. The Chuck and Di Show was the best soap opera on TV, and it didn’t cost us a dime! If I choose to play what I consider to be an entertaining parlor game, where’s the harm? If I quote Star Trek episodes chapter and verse, no one thinks ill of it. > [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Is he a Life Peer? > > Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but these days don’t most Life Peers use their birth last name as their titles, like Baron Olivier and Lord Black? It depends on whether or not there is already a peerage with that name. You are not supposed to have two Lord Smiths, but for heraldic purposes, “Lord Smith” and “Lord Smith of York” are two distinct titles. Laurence Olivier wanted to be plain old “Baron Olivier”. But there had already been a life peer named Olivier, and he had a couple of children who were still living. They didn’t want him using their father’s title, so he became “Baron Olivier of Brighton”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/56 "2010-03-22T02:41:43Z")
> [@Saltire](#): > > Back when I hung out with the SCA, the protocol mavens were real sticklers about this. Only nobility and certain officers were allowed to swear fealty to the Crown, and only those who had would be allowed to use ‘My Liege.’ All Great Officers, all ex-royalty and all Knights and other Peers Llaurels and Pelicans) swear fealty. Some SCA royalty i_nvite_ the entire populace to do so. Anyone who is a Prince is by definition not a commoner. But yes, there are Royal children or those who have only a courtesy title who are commoners. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/57 "2010-03-22T10:52:28Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but these days don’t most Life Peers use their birth last name as their titles, like Baron Olivier and Lord Black? Not necessarily. Tony Banks decided to call himself Lord Stratford. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/58 "2010-03-22T13:28:18Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > It depends on whether or not there is already a peerage with that name. You are not supposed to have two Lord Smiths, but for heraldic purposes, “Lord Smith” and “Lord Smith of York” are two distinct titles. > > Laurence Olivier wanted to be plain old “Baron Olivier”. But there had already been a life peer named Olivier, and he had a couple of children who were still living. They didn’t want him using their father’s title, so he became “Baron Olivier of Brighton”. This seems a little confused. The conventional formula is that you are Baron So-and-So of Somewhere. Thus even the already mentioned Tony Banks became the, slightly cumbersome and redundant, [Lord Stratford of Stratford in the London Borough of Newham](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4123628.stm). In the Olivier case, the previous Lord Olivier had started as Sydney Olivier and become govenor of Jamaica. And his title, following the formula, was actually Baron Olivier _of Ramsden_. Since he only had daughters, the title died out when he did in 1943. They may indeed have been unhappy when Sir Larry was raised to the peerage, but there’d only really have been a problem if he’d also wanted to be Baron Olivier of Ramsden - rather unlikely surely. The original’s family are quite possibly still unhappy that any casual reference to “Lord Olivier” is now automatically taken to be the actor, but there was no concesssion to their feelings in him being more fully Lord Olivier of Brighton. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/59 "2010-03-22T14:30:58Z")
In recent times we’ve had Lord Harris of High Cross, Lord Harris of Greenwich, Lord Harris of Harringay, and Lord Harris of Peckham ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/60 "2010-03-23T02:46:08Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Laurence Olivier wanted to be plain old “Baron Olivier”. But there had already been a life peer named Olivier, and he had a couple of children who were still living. They didn’t want him using their father’s title, so he became “Baron Olivier of Brighton”. Does the recipient of a Life Peerage have to style himself Lord Surname of Whatsit, or are they allowed to choose something else? It stands to reason that if the person’s surname is already an old, well known title, they’d want to use something else. I know that with Earls and higher, the family name is usually distinct from the title, like Clarence The Earl of Emsworth and his younger brother Galahad Threepwood in the Wodehouse stories, but with Barons I’m not so sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876.md?page=4)