# Is "My Liege" still correct for addressing British Nobility & Royalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876 "2010-03-18T13:43:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/61 "2010-03-23T10:42:11Z")
Not necessarily. George Brown (the well-known drunk) wanted to call himself Lord George Brown. The College of Heralds objected, and he eventually changed his surname to George-Brown and was allowed to call himself Lord George-Brown of Jevington. Nonetheless the Press generally referred to him as Lord George Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/62 "2010-03-23T14:16:39Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Does the recipient of a Life Peerage have to style himself Lord Surname of Whatsit, or are they allowed to choose something else? It stands to reason that if the person’s surname is already an old, well known title, they’d want to use something else. I know that with Earls and higher, the family name is usually distinct from the title, like Clarence The Earl of Emsworth and his younger brother Galahad Threepwood in the Wodehouse stories, but with Barons I’m not so sure. Formalist answer: They become whatever His/Her Majesty is pleased to entitle them. Some Earls have toponymic titles, others surname-bsed (like Earl Grey after whose ancestor the tea is named). Practical answer: The PM, the Queen, the individual himself, and the College of Heralds (whose duty it is to keep track of this sort of thing) all have input, and where possible the guy who has to bear the title will have his wishes honored when possible. Ordinarily Lord Surname of Placename type titles are given to avoid confusion with other Lords Surname – that is, “Lord Weaver of Epworth” and “Lord Weaver of Carlisle” makes the same sort of distinction as a newspaper’s “Paul Simon the senator” vs. “Paul Simon the singer”. ---
**Author:** ![zelie\_zelerton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/59ef9b/32.png) [@zelie\_zelerton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zelie_zelerton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/63 "2010-03-23T16:16:45Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > “Ma’am” (pronounced almost like “marm”) is the least contentious form of address in informal occasions. If you are on your second address to the Queen then Ma’am is pronounced Mam to rhyme with ham. No extra r’s please. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/64 "2010-03-23T17:21:05Z")
The Ministry of Justice website provides a succinct explanation of the conventions used for peerage titles of barons (and viscounts). > [@](#): > > _A Peerage name, style and title below the rank of Earl consists of the rank and name (the Nomen Dignitatis) and the territorial designation, which associates the Peerage and indicates the connection of the Peer with a place in the United Kingdom. Where the Nomen Dignitatis is a surname, it is usually the actual surname of the recipient. If that surname has never been borne in a Peerage before, then such a surname is borne as the title itself, as in VISCOUNT DOE of London and note the title must still be associated with a place, even though it does not form part of the title actually used. If however, the surname has already been used as a Peerage title it can only be granted to a new Peer in association with the name of a place, and in this case it then forms part of the title, eg. VISCOUNT DOE OF BRIGHTON. The use of a territorial designation alone may sometimes be granted, eg. LORD BRIGHTON._ > > [http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/foa-peers.htm#terr-des](http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/foa-peers.htm#terr-des) > [@Polycarp](#): > > Practical answer: The PM, the Queen, the individual himself, and the College of Heralds (whose duty it is to keep track of this sort of thing) all have input, and where possible the guy who has to bear the title will have his wishes honored when possible. In practice, it is entirely a matter between the recipient and the Garter King of Arms. Even when they disagree, it rarely goes beyond Garter making disapproving noises and then agreeing to the change-your-name-by-deedpoll option. If the territorial designation is thought to be inappropriate, usually because it is too grand (e.g. the topical ‘Lord Ashcroft of Belize’), Garter just says no. It is not as if the recipient is in any position to force the granting of the letters patent. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/65 "2010-03-28T12:42:29Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > [QUOTE=mbh] > It depends on whether or not there is already a peerage with that name. You are not supposed to have two Lord Smiths, but for heraldic purposes, “Lord Smith” and “Lord Smith of York” are two distinct titles. > > Laurence Olivier wanted to be plain old “Baron Olivier”. But there had already been a life peer named Olivier, and he had a couple of children who were still living. They didn’t want him using their father’s title, so he became “Baron Olivier of Brighton”. This seems a little confused. The conventional formula is that you are Baron So-and-So of Somewhere. Thus even the already mentioned Tony Banks became the, slightly cumbersome and redundant, [Lord Stratford of Stratford in the London Borough of Newham](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4123628.stm). In the Olivier case, the previous Lord Olivier had started as Sydney Olivier and become govenor of Jamaica. And his title, following the formula, was actually Baron Olivier _of Ramsden_. Since he only had daughters, the title died out when he did in 1943. They may indeed have been unhappy when Sir Larry was raised to the peerage, but there’d only really have been a problem if he’d also wanted to be Baron Olivier of Ramsden - rather unlikely surely. The original’s family are quite possibly still unhappy that any casual reference to “Lord Olivier” is now automatically taken to be the actor, but there was no concesssion to their feelings in him being more fully Lord Olivier of Brighton. [/QUOTE] Happening to stumble across a copy of Terry Coleman’s Olivier bio yesterday, I idly looked at what it says on the matter. It appears that two issues have been confused: [ul]Olivier requested that he be “Lord Olivier” without any placename. This was refused, precisely because it did not accord to the formula. (His argument had been that to be lord of somewhere was “pretentious”. While just being some global “Lord Olivier” wouldn’t be?)[/ul] [ul]Where Sydney Olivier entered the matter was over a separate issue. Coleman claims that the heralds were operating the rule that, to prevent confusion, **any** use of the name Olivier would have to wait till 100 years after the demise of the previous title. It was this that required a waiver and the permission of the daughters.[/ul] Any such rule must have eventually been abandoned, possibly because it became unworkable as life peerages came to dominate. Hence we can currently simultaneously have Lord Smith of [Finsbury](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Smith,_Baron_Smith_of_Finsbury), of [Kelvin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Smith,_Baron_Smith_of_Kelvin), of [Clifton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Smith,_Baron_Smith_of_Clifton) and of [Leigh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Smith,_Baron_Smith_of_Leigh). Plus [Baroness Smith of Gilmorehill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smith,_Baroness_Smith_of_Gilmorehill). The final twist is that Sydney Olivier had actually been the actor’s uncle. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/66 "2010-03-28T14:48:08Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > “My lord”? Just as we’ve discussed, he’s not _my_ lord. I don’t work in his house or on his estate, and I’m not feudally bound to him in return for a small province inclusive of people, buildings and animals. > > If I meet him as a social equal, which these days is just about everyone except his grounds and house servants, if any, wouldn’t I simply go on calling him Lord Greenback, as I might address his younger brother Mr. Whatever? Then, as noted eventually Greenback, on the same circumstance as when I might drop the Mr. in talking to his brother? The “my” in “my lord” doesn’t mean he actually is _your_ lord, any more than signing a letter to him as “yours truly” would. For that matter, The Queen herself would address him as “my lord” too. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/67 "2010-03-28T19:28:50Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > The “my” in “my lord” doesn’t mean he actually is _your_ lord, any more than signing a letter to him as “yours truly” would. For that matter, The Queen herself would address him as “my lord” too. Seems strange to me. With regard to the Queen, if I travel to Canada or the UK, and by some bizarre chance happen to meet her, I’d certainly observe all the requisite honorifics and etiquette because it’s meant to show respect for the country I’m visiting. But if I meet Lord Emsworth as a social equal–for instance, we belong to the same club and a mutual friend there introduces us, I can’t wrap my mind around the fact that I should call him my lord. I know the P.G. Wodehouse stories aren’t documentaries, but have always assumed his usage of titles and honorifics among the aristocracy, their families, and their servants was more or less accurate. About the only person who called Emsworth “my Lord” was Beach the butler. Even Monica Simmons The Pig Girl called him Lord Emsworth. In **Brideshead Revisited** it’s the same; only the butler and other servants say “milord” or “milady” to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/68 "2010-03-28T19:38:47Z")
Nobody calls a member of the aristocracy (as opposed to a member of the royal family) by their title if they meet them in an informal situation. If you met a lord at a party, you probably wouldn’t even be told that he is a lord. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/69 "2010-03-28T23:39:11Z")
Rereading **APB** ’s Ministry of Justice cite does suggest a different interpretation of the Olivier example. In their typography, Sydney Olivier was _BARON OLIVIER of Ramsden_, while Laurence Olivier was _BARON OLIVIER OF BRIGHTON_. And their use of _BRIGHTON_ does suggest a degree of deliberation in their choice. But it also does suggest that Coleman, as the authorised biographer, may be talking bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![SamSDMB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@SamSDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamSDMB)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/70 "2016-05-06T17:48:03Z")
The thread above that stated that both Princes William and Harry are technically commoners was correct when written, but now that William is also Duke of Cambridge he is a peer. It’s rumored that Prince Harry will be made Duke of Sussex, most likely when he marries, although, if he procrastinates for a very long time but behaves himself, it could be sooner. At that point, he will also be a peer. It’s unlikely that any of the other grandchildren of the Queen will be given titles. Of course, legal status and precedence are two different things and the royal grandchildren’s precedence ranking is higher than many peers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/71 "2016-05-06T17:51:39Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > There are periodic threads like this in which an American assumes that Brits have to constantly worry about what they would say when they meet some member of the royal family or at least the aristocracy. You’re about as likely to meet a member of the royal family in the U.K. as you are to meet the President, the First Lady, or one of their children in the U.S. The high level Royals, yes, but I quaffed beers with a Baronet right here in California. Nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/72 "2016-05-06T17:59:38Z")
> [@SamSDMB](#): > > The thread above that stated that both Princes William and Harry are technically commoners was correct when written, but now that William is also Duke of Cambridge he is a peer. It’s rumored that Prince Harry will be made Duke of Sussex, most likely when he marries, although, if he procrastinates for a very long time but behaves himself, it could be sooner. At that point, he will also be a peer. It’s unlikely that any of the other grandchildren of the Queen will be given titles. Of course, legal status and precedence are two different things and the royal grandchildren’s precedence ranking is higher than many peers. And this “commoner” thing is only a technicality and mostly only in the UK. In other nations, any direct descendant would be a “royal” and those with noble blood but no title would be called a “Gentleman”. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/73 "2016-05-06T19:31:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ooh ooh, I know this! The correct form for direct address in speech would be “Lord Greenback” at the initial address, and “my lord” subsequently. > > If you’re on familiar terms, you would just call him “Greenback”. I just call him Buck. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/74 "2016-05-06T20:13:04Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I just call him Buck. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/75 "2016-05-07T09:48:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The high level Royals, yes, but I quaffed beers with a Baronet right here in California. Nice guy. And when I was a teen-ager living in Honolulu, I got to have dinner once with a genuine Samoan High Talking Chief. In my very own home! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/76 "2016-05-07T12:14:30Z")
You do know that all this is just high faluting nonsense. For almost any situation Ma’am and Sir will suffice. If you are writing a formal letter, then maybe the proper address is required, but verbally - just don’t believe what you see in TV drama. In the workplace, how do you address your boss, or the CEO? Some places expect Ma’am or sir, but in the UK at least, this has become rare outside militaristic organisations like the police and fire service. Way back in the 80s, it was suggested to me that I should call a new boss sir. I simply avoided calling him anything after that. We like our royals, even if we take the piss out of some of them. All those lords and ladies are just part of our heritage like stately homes and castles. They are nice to look at (well some are) but have little impact on our lives. Giving Knighthoods or Damehoods to people is a cheap way to reward them, and they do have to put some effort in to qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Canadian\_eh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/67e7ee/32.png) [@Canadian\_eh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadian_eh)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/77 "2016-09-10T11:26:34Z")
Serious question: What makes someone your 'better". I am Canadian and would never use a term such as Lord or Lady to address someone. I would always use Mr. or Ms. I would never curtsy, either. I extend my hand. I fail to understand why someone with an inherited title is a “better” and why people of the UK are so eager to hold them in esteem regardless of their lifestyles and values. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/78 "2016-09-10T12:44:45Z")
> [@Canadian\_eh](#): > > I am Canadian and would never use a term such as Lord or Lady to address someone. Hopefully you never have to go to court in a province where that’s still the expect form of address for a judge. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/79 "2016-09-10T13:06:57Z")
It’s discourteous to do so when you already know they aren’t ‘Mister’. If, after introduction they invite you to call them something else, that’s different. Small children aren’t expected to master the complexities of it, but adults can and should. (Most titles that currently exist aren’t inherited ones these days). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876/80 "2016-09-10T13:15:53Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but these days don’t most Life Peers use their birth last name as their titles, like Baron Olivier and Lord Black? Yes: here you go [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life\_peer#Titles\_and\_forms\_of\_address](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_peer#Titles_and_forms_of_address) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-my-liege-still-correct-for-addressing-british-nobility-royalty/532876.md?page=5)