# Is Nader going to screw up another election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275 "2004-02-20T22:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/161 "2004-02-26T23:38:35Z")
Kerry will have to squirm a bit on the issue, as one of his campaign managers did on Hardball earlier this week. The next episode of this soap opera will come when gays start marrying in MA in May. A lot of this has to do with how much the press pushes this the issue. And given this country’s fascination with sex of all types, I’m guessing the media will try to make a big deal out this-- it’ll sell newpaper, and make people tune in their TVs. But Kerry also has his vote against the DOMA on his side. Only 14 Senators voted against it. This should inoculate him pretty well among Democrats and Greens. I think Bush is hoping to shore up his base with this issue rather than get any anti-gay marriage Dems to defect. And that’s where Kerry’s DOMA vote will help Bush. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/162 "2004-02-26T23:57:25Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > Lets say, for the sake of argument, that Kerry was a card carrying member of the KKK, but he promised not to let those “personal feelings” get in the way of his “business” if elected president. Do you think black people should feel comfortable enough with that to actually vote for him? You’d have to ask the black voters involved. Maybe if he made a sufficiently-sincere pledge not to let his own racial feelings affect his work, they’ll believe him. Who knows? To bring it back to the topic, is there any evidence to support the notion that Kerry is sufficiently homophobic that, if elected President, he would use his authority to restrict the rights of homosexuals? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/163 "2004-02-27T00:37:43Z")
I still don’t understand why there is even an argument about whether or not gay marriage should or should not be a Federal vs. state issue. When an individual state makes the marriage legal, it is automatically a Federal issue because marriages have, up to now, been recognized in any state and at the Federal level. It’s _done_. Come May, this is now a Federal issue, whether or not any candidate thinks it should be or not. Taking the “I think it should be a state issue, full stop” stance is simply evasive. The next president WILL have to deal with this on some level. In CA there is still considerable question about legality, but in MA there is NONE. Until MA amends its constitution, GAY MARRIAGE IS LEGAL. Get it? Anyone, from any state, can go to MA, and get married. When they go home, they will still be married. If the home state tries to declare the license null and void, the married parties can take it all the way to the Supreme Judicial Court of the USA because the US constitution _supports the legality of the marriage_. Kerry saying “I think it’s a state issue” means nothing. It tells us nothing about what he will do with this once he’s in office; and he has to do something, at least symbolically. Will he contintue to dodge, and say “I’m personally against it, but it’s a matter for the courts?” Appropriate or not, does the electorate want this? So, you’ve got… Bush: I don’t support it, we need to amend the constitution. Nader: I support it. Kerry: I don’t support it, and that’s all I’m going to say. Obviously, in order of rank of gay-friendliness, Bush is way at the bottom, and Nader is way at the top. Where is Kerry? What will he really do? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/164 "2004-02-27T01:15:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I would also expect a hefty portion of them to join us on the barricades if the Supreme Court awards GeeDubya the Presidency based on Divine Right. To your tents, O Israel! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/165 "2004-02-27T01:41:01Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > To bring it back to the topic, is there any evidence to support the notion that Kerry is sufficiently homophobic that, if elected President, he would use his authority to restrict the rights of homosexuals? Like I said earlier, he voted **against** the DOMA. He’s a big States’ Rights supporter on this issue. 🙂 I think it’s safe to say he would try to keep the feds out of the issue altogether. [As for whether he would support a MA state amendment to ban gay marriage:](http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=kerry+gay+marriage+amendment+massachusetts&u=news.yahoo.com/news%3Ftmpl%3Dstory2%26cid%3D694%26u%3D/ap/20040211/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_gay_marriage_2%26printer%3D1&w=kerry+gay+marriage+amendment+massachusetts&d=234000211F&c=482&yc=42657&icp=1) > [@](#): > > When asked whether he might support Massachusetts’ constitutional amendment, he said it was possible. > > “It depends entirely on the language on whether it supports civil union and partnership or not. I’m for civil union, I’m for partnership rights. I think what ought to condition this debate is not the term marriage, as much as the rights that people are afforded,” Kerry told National Public Radio on Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/166 "2004-02-27T15:37:07Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I think it’s safe to say he would try to keep the feds out of the issue altogether. Which, IMO, is the wrong thing to do. Leaving it up to the individual states to decide puts gay and lesbian couples into the position of second-class citizens - their civil unions may not be recognized from state to state, and the civil benefits they’re permitted won’t be anything close to the benefits heterosexual married couples enjoy. This, **elucidator** , is only one reason among many I don’t plan on voting for Kerry. Gay marriage is the immediate topic of discussion, but I don’t think anyone here is basing their choice of candidate solely on this one issue. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/167 "2004-02-28T05:29:47Z")
States can already ignore other marriages, **Olentzero**. This has been true the entire time. No state is under any strict obligation to act contrary to their own policy. If Nebraska doesn’t like third cousins marrying, and pass a law against it that is constitutional, and I marry my third cousing and move to Nebraska, I don’t see any way I can force them to acknowledge the marriage. > [@](#): > > Which, IMO, is the wrong thing to do. Well, I agree here, if the federal government is going to recognize marriage implicitly such as on federal tax forms, it seems they’ve already managed to make it their issue, not a states’ issue. Thing is, I don’t think the federal government will be able to act in the way you want. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/168 "2004-02-28T14:41:51Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > States can already ignore other marriages, **Olentzero**. Cites, please. Are there any actual examples of one state denying the marital status of a heterosexual couple married in another state? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/169 "2004-02-28T14:53:22Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Cites, please. Are there any actual examples of one state denying the marital status of a heterosexual couple married in another state? I don’t know if there are examples or not, but that is not what I claimed. My understanding of marriage laws WRT their recognition among the states was gained from **Bricker** and **Dewey Cheatum Undhow** in a thread I started about gay marriage, where I asked such questions so that I could better understand the issue. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/170 "2004-02-28T14:58:09Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > States can already ignore other marriages, **Olentzero**. This has been true the entire time. No state is under any strict obligation to act contrary to their own policy. If Nebraska doesn’t like third cousins marrying, and pass a law against it that is constitutional, and I marry my third cousing and move to Nebraska, I don’t see any way I can force them to acknowledge the marriage. I beg to differ: Article IV, Sectons 1 and 2 of the Constitution: > [@](#): > > Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof. The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. Now I may have heard tell of an Act of Congress that permits a state not to recognize same-sex marriages performed in another state, but I know of nothing that permits a state a blank check to deny marriage rights to anyone they choose. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/171 "2004-02-28T15:00:11Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > but I know of nothing that permits a state a blank check to deny marriage rights to anyone they choose. Me neither. What I said was that they aren’t required to act contrary to their own policy ie laws. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/172 "2004-02-28T20:15:38Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > This, **elucidator** , is only one reason among many I don’t plan on voting for Kerry. So who (getting back to the OP) do you plan to vote for? Nader? The Green? One of the candidates of the socialist parties? Or will you just stay home on election day? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/173 "2004-02-29T00:01:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So who (getting back to the OP) do you plan to vote for? Nader? The Green? One of the candidates of the socialist parties? Or will you just stay home on election day? At this point I’m thinking of voting for Nader, because his stance on the issues most closely matches mine. But that’s not absolutely fixed yet. He may do something to disappoint me - like making good on his statement to try to reach out to Republicans disgusted with Bush. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/174 "2004-02-29T00:13:52Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > At this point I’m thinking of voting for Nader, because his stance on the issues most closely matches mine. But that’s not absolutely fixed yet. He may do something to disappoint me - like making good on his statement to try to reach out to Republicans disgusted with Bush. ??? Ralph is even more optimistic than I thought. Certainly there are a lot of Republicans and conservatives who have good reason to be disgusted with Bush: Nativist-isolationists like Pat Buchanan hate Bush because of the Iraq War and the amnesty for illegal aliens; populist conservatives hate him for being a servant of the superrich and the corporations; Libertarians and libertarian-leaning conservatives hate him because of the Patriot Act; fiscal conservatives hate him for his deficits. But why would **any** of these groups see **Ralph Nader** as an acceptable alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275/175 "2004-02-29T02:42:39Z")
I have absolutely no idea, and I think it’s stupid of him to even think it. But he said it in no uncertain terms during his “Meet the Press” interview and he deserves - justifiably so - to be called on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nader-going-to-screw-up-another-election/230275.md?page=8)