# Is NAMBLA for real or just propoganda? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 1, 1999, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877 "1999-10-01T13:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 1999, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/41 "1999-10-12T19:06:00Z")
There’s been a lot said in this thread about how sex between adults and pre-adults is psychologically harmful to the pre-adults. I hold the _opinion,_, based on a few stories I’ve heard, that consenting sex between a teen-ager and an adult is viewed by the teen-ager as a positive experience, both at the time and later when the teen-ager reaches adulthood. Obviously, not everyone’s opinion here agrees with that assessment. Since this IS the Straight Dope message board, what I/we really should ask is: What studies have been done on this subject? Have impartial surveys been done of people who, as teen-agers, had sexual relations with adults? What were the results of these studies? * * * Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 1999, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/42 "1999-10-12T20:11:00Z")
I was 16 when I became sexually active. A dick was a dick to me, the age of the dick mattered not a whit. And my best friend, a gay boy, started having sex a little earlier. With adults. He loved it. * * * * * * This is a non-smoking area. If we see you smoking, we will assume you are on fire and act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 1999, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/43 "1999-10-12T21:39:00Z")
Last Friday, a Maryland man got sentenced to 36 years in prison for having two sexual relationships, one with a 14-year old girl; the other with a 15-year old. In both cases, the fact that the girls initiated the ‘relationship’ and were willing partners mattered not. In fact, the judge said that it was the man’s duty to be responsible and act the adult, as children need to be protected from themselves in spite of themselves in matters of sexual conduct with adults. One may have a cavalier attitude toward high school kids having sex with adults, but the truth of the matter is that there is a very real risk of the adult spending a long time in prison, whether the child wants that or not. Maybe Stoidela and her friend would not reminisce so fondly if the two men involved were still in prison. BTW, I agree with the judge, and the man going to prison, even though 36 years seems a little harsh. ---
**Author:** ![jazzmine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jazzmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jazzmine)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 1999, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/44 "1999-10-13T00:37:00Z")
I have a problem with teen/adult sex, depending upon the circumstances. I had sex with an adult when I was a teenager. Liked older men. Still do. Married one. On the OTHER hand. I have teenager girls. I don’t think they’re even close to being emotionally responsible enough for sex. Especially with an older man. And no, I’m not deluding myself. At least for the moment, they’re not sexually active. _crossing my fingers_ I know that I probably wasn’t anymore mature than they are at that age. But it would really break my heart to see them hurt. So, if it happens to them, even with their consent, I’ll press charges. Which is a lot more civil than what their father would do. trisha ---
**Author:** ![jazzmine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jazzmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jazzmine)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 1999, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/45 "1999-10-13T00:38:00Z")
aw jeez. _sigh_ teenAGE girls ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 1999, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/46 "1999-10-13T01:08:00Z")
I checked out the Web on the Guyon Society. It has a fair presence there, but essentially only as an unelaborated weapon used on pages concerned about child sexual abuse, on right-wing Christian anti-gay pages and on other conservatives’ pages. I found this on a Canadian page: * * * 3.5 One of the US support groups, the Rene Guyon Society, achieved a certain notoriety in the 1970s and early 1980s with its slogan of “sex before eight, or else its too late” and its claims of a membership numbering in the thousands. However, the 1986 United States Senate subcommittee report commented that the Society “is widely known by most investigators as a one-man propaganda operation whose membership claims are not credible”. [note #78] * * * It’s not clear to me, from what I find on the Web, whether the “group” was/is male-homo-oriented or hetero-oriented. Some of the info on the “group” on the Web was taken from this: “Rene Guyon Society promotional/information package distributed in Beverly Hills, California, on March 20, 1981.” Typical hostile descriptions, on the Web, of this and other pedophilic organizations are: * * * The Rene Guyon Society in the United States is named after a notorious child abuser. To become a member you must have intercourse with a child younger than eight years old. Their motto is “Sex before eight or it’s too late.” It claims 5,000 members. The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) combined with the Rene Guyon Society claim a membership of over 25,000. * * * (12) Another predominate homosexual/paederasty organisation is ‘The Rene Guyon Society’ it “boasts” 10,000 members, they also feel no shame in proliferating their slogan: “Sex Before Eight or it’s Too Late!” (Thats not 8pm but Aged 8!). Other paederast groups include the the Childhood Sensuality Circle, PAN, Lewis Carroll Collector’s Guild, and the Eulenspiegel Society. The largest British Paedophilie organisation is the Paedophilic Information Exchange (PIE), which is ‘fighting’ to lower the age of consent to four years. * * * The pedophilic Rene Guyon Society of Los Angeles is more strident: its crude motto is “Sex by eight or else it’s too late.” The British Pedophile Information Exchange (P.I.E.) wants the age of consent dropped as low as four. * * * I doubt there is much of any real organization of pedophiles in CA-US, since the political climate is extremely hostile to them, and the penalties extreme – for even the most minor of acts, or suspicioned acts, with children. Most of this state is quite right-wing, despite some relatively liberal centers in SF and LA. I have seen news items indicating that certain unorganized but intercommunicating blocs of pedophiles have been picked up by law enforcement. As for René Guyon (1876 -1963) himself, he apparently was first a French and then a Thai judge, who had quite extreme and controversial views, some apparently influenced by, probably _ **selected** _ Thai views: [http://www.rki.de/GESUND/ARCHIV/COLLGUY1.HTM](http://www.rki.de/GESUND/ARCHIV/COLLGUY1.HTM) [http://www.rki.de/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUYBIBL.HTM](http://www.rki.de/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUYBIBL.HTM) [http://www.rki.de/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUYTX.HTM](http://www.rki.de/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUYTX.HTM) Apparently some of the above cames from the LA namesake source: “Reference: Rene Guyon Society promotional/information package distributed in Beverly Hills, California, on March 20, 1981.” Guyon didn’t like the League of Nations’ and UN views on sexual rights: “‘Rene Guyon proposed that we amend the Declaration of Human Rights with the following section: "Everyone has the right to sexual freedom and the free disposal of his or her body to that end; and no person shall be molested, prosecuted, or condemned by the law for having voluntarily engaged in sexual acts or activities of any kind whatever, provided they are devoid of violence, of constraint, and of fraud.’ (quoted by Haeberle 1983, p.169)” Another synopsis of Guyon: “In Bangkok, the French judge René Guyon, who, earlier in the century, had been called to Thailand by the Thai government, begins his radical “Studies in Sexual Ethics”. He demands the right to sexual fulfillment for all women and men as long as they do not violate the rights of others. Of the 9 volumes written until 1944, only 6 are published in French (2 also in English). In the 1940’s, Guyon also attacks the repressive sexual policies of the League of Nations, and he repeats his criticism in 1951, when he accuses the United Nations of betraying the idea of sexual rights in their Universal Declaration of Human Rights.” Here is mention of another aspect of Guyon found on the Web: > [@](#): > > Rene Guyon, a proponent of the woman as a “sexual parasite,” wished to liberate people from what he called “the hideous bondage of conventional sexuality morality!” His unabashed proclamation of unfettered sexual license, Sexual Freedom (1950), is infested with parasitic expressions: “Woman is almost universally parasitic”; “parasitism . . . is woman’s intrinsic nature”; “her parasitic instinct”; “woman’s sexual parasitism is innate”; “the parasitism of women assumes multifarious forms, and is so much second nature that is may be regarded as a common place.”[68] > > Elaborating more fully on the nature of female “sexual parasitism,” Guyon declared that women in general “regard parasitism on the male as their ideal, and if possible parasitism upon one ‘host,’ a man able to provide a stable position . . . that guarantee of permanence which is most congenial to a parasite.” In addition, Guyon > maintained, “average women” exhibit a decided disinclination “to welcome social or legal changes which will interfere with their parasitic role.” “There are,” he continually reiterated, “many advantages in being a > parasite.”[69] The issue of age and age difference, chronologically by year, as opposed to volition or violence, in respect to any behavior interpretable as of a sexual nature – or representative thereof, such as child pornography – is probably one that will always be accompanied by outspoken disagreement. There certainly could be better conciliation on the subject and resultant improvement in laws in most jurisdictions, since much of the law has resulted from knee-jerk legislation after extreme crimes, and is further misused beyond its literal language. Academic views held, under the concept of ‘science’ or whatever, also really aren’t going to act as suitable solutions alone either. The subject is inherently subjective, beyond the pertinent considerations of physiology in immature individuals. I certainly agree with some others here, that the general issue covers two distinctive psychophysiological problem areas, those where the minor is preadolescent and those where she/he is postadolescent. Of course, there are the problems of the transitional period and the age at which adolescence occurs in the particular individual, along with all the other psychosocially specific elements involved in sexual behavior in general. The extent of acts charged, however, can range from rather inconsequential ones to murder. If the full range of sexually indicative acts be determinative of the label ‘pedophilia’, I don’t doubt the existence of the numbers of adherents to this preference that are attributed to these organizations, as cited on the Web, who engage in at least the minimal acts that are targeted. The worst part of the right-wing descriptions is the lumping of all acts in any way related, or suspicioned as so, to sex with children, from the innocuous or nonfactual to the fatal. Some of this is present in this SD thread, but here is an extreme example from the Web: * * * . BUT BY FAR THE MOST DEADLY TYPE OF CHILD PORN IS “SNUFF” PORNOGRAPHY, IN WHICH THE PORNOGRAPHER ACTUALLY KILLS THE CHILD DURING THE FILMING SESSION TO ADD REALISN TO HIS ---
**Author:** ![Matt\_Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c67d28/32.png) [@Matt\_Matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Matt_Matt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/47 "2012-04-05T18:38:44Z")
Yes. Nambla does exist, and yes, gay men hate that organization with a passion…nearly all of us. > [@astro](#): > > Yes NAMBLA is (amazingly) for real. > > I hold not truck with gay (or other) bashing but the fact of the matter is that there is a signification orientation in gay culture to idealize and pursue young (sometimes very young) boys as objects of erotic desire and this has been the case for millennia. > > While pedophiles can and do cross gender lines the dirty little secret is that the notion of “boy” attraction and “boy” love is much more tolerated and accepted in current gay culture than erotic attraction toward children (or near children) is in current mainstream heterosexual culture. > > Nature or nuture issues are beside the point. Those who prey on children (regardless of specious “they really love it” > arguments) should be locked up. This information is incorrect. Attraction to teenagers is actually very uncommon in the gay community. I have known 100s of gay men, and only two were more attracted to teenagers than to men in their twenties and 30s. This dirty little secret you mention is actually completely backwards. There were a series of articles written by boys in the 18 to twenty range who had moved to San Francisco to find older boyfriends. They found that their older boyfriends were very badly ostracized by the gay community, and that the straight people in San Francisco were actually far more accepting to these relationships than the gay people were. If anything, gay men tend to be quite prejudiced against chickenhawks. I would never date a twenty year old myself because I have heard stories of younger people getting suicidal when their relationships don’t work out, so I know that younger people have more difficulty dealing with relationships emotionally that older people, but I don’t think I would ostracize someone for dating a 20 year old. On the other hand, 18 is a bit hard for me to fathom, but, evidently so many straight people wouldn’t worry about the emotional stability of an 18 year old girl entering a relationship. We have barred Nambla from our community centers and gay rights parades, and, I imagine that some within our community must have contacted the FBI at various points about them, if we hear any thing. What more can we possibly do? ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/48 "2012-04-05T18:40:27Z")
Wow. A thirteen year old zombie! I think that is a new record! ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/49 "2012-04-05T18:41:04Z")
But what about zombie pedophiles…they surely are a right wing conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/50 "2012-04-05T19:04:41Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I recognize that some standard must exist in terms of “age of consent” in order for “children” to be protected. > > HOWEVER… having been a child myself at one time, and then a teenager (female, by the way) I remember CLEARLY being perfectly capable and comfortable with my sexual choices. I was never coerced or manipulated. I started having sex at 16. I had sex with men many years older than me, and I often enjoyed it. I had friends who started having sex, or nearly sex, as young as 13. Even then, I disapproved and knew I was not ready, but they made that choice. I am still friends with most of them and we are all in our 40’s. None of them feels exploited by their early sexual experiences. > > I think it is ludicrous to take the stand that because a given human being has not yet turned 18 that any sexual choices they make, especially those which include persons siginicantly older than themselves, are wrong, bad, or examples of exploitation or rape. Sometimes they ARE, often they are not. > > Whatever we may think of the ADULT in that relationship, the fact is that biologically, puberty=sexual readiness. I think each case is individual. Believe me, I am deeply saddened when i see 12 year old girls who are pregnant, whether it is by their 12 year old boyfriend or their 30 year old boyfriend. But I believe that each sexually active person (Past puberty!!!) is different, and we can’t make blanket assumptions about them. > (for those of you having coronarys over my words, keep in mind that my sister was raped by her stepfather from age 8 to 10…this is not REMOTELY acceptable in ANY universe, ok?) > > Stoid > Who thinks NAMBLA is deeply icky and most of their propaganda is horseshit…but had gay male friends in school and knows that gay boys DO like sleeping with older guys > > * * * > > * * * > > This is a non-smoking area. If we see you smoking, we will assume you are on fire and act accordingly. The problem with your idea is that the issue isn’t so much sexual desire and consent by the minor, but rather the position of power an adult has over a child. A child is not emotionally capable of fending off the advances of an adult. An adult can mentally convince a child or make the child feel he/she has to do something because an adult is in the position of authority. As some others have said here, I will be more than happy to solve the problem if I find out an adult ha touched one of my children. they won’t be happy and it will end up being a bad day for them. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/51 "2012-04-05T19:31:50Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Wow. A thirteen year old zombie! > > I think that is a new record! At least we can safely assume this zombie is a hebezombie/ephebezombie, not a pedozombie. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/52 "2012-04-05T19:39:22Z")
Heterosexuals idolize youth, too. Just look at how many porn sites there are advertising about their “hot slutty teenagers”, or the countdown clocks on the Internet for when the latest child actress will become “legal”. And yet the vast majority of heterosexuals somehow manage to keep their zippers shut around actual, real-live girls. I see no reason not to assume the same of homosexuals. And to the OP’s question, about six months ago I saw a car with a pro-NAMBLA bumper sticker on it. I was surprised, to say the least, to see a public admission of such (though I suppose it’s conceivable that someone other than the owner put it on as a tasteless prank). ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/53 "2012-04-05T19:40:00Z")
Which reminds me, my dues are in arrears. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/54 "2012-04-05T19:42:43Z")
Ah Vinny. Still can’t get his pluralization rules straight. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/55 "2012-04-05T19:46:42Z")
> [@Matt\_Matt](#): > > Yes. Nambla does exist, and yes, gay men hate that organization with a passion…nearly all of us. This thread was last posted to 13 years ago, and the person you are responding to might not realize it has been revived after all these years, so you might not get a response. ---
**Author:** ![Mesquite-oh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@Mesquite-oh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mesquite-oh)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/56 "2012-04-06T06:13:52Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Wow. A thirteen year old zombie! > > I think that is a new record! Just think, in 5 years it will be legal! ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/57 "2012-04-06T19:44:13Z")
Obligatory All Man lyrics: “Lawd I was born a NAMBLA man, Just tryin’ to love the young’uns and help 'em become a man…” ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/58 "2012-04-06T20:00:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This thread was last posted to 13 years ago \ If it’s OK to be off-topic in this ancient beast, I’m curious about the cause of the posts that don’t have a username listed (and, I think, one post that is devoid of username AND content). There are obviously other banned posters whose posts have shown up in the thread, so is this what happens when someone is wished into the cornfield? ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/59 "2012-04-07T10:09:40Z")
> [@Mesquite-oh](#): > > Just think, in 5 years it will be legal! Actually, in most states it will be legal in three years and in Illinois (where the site is run), four years. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877/60 "2012-04-07T10:17:51Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > If it’s OK to be off-topic in this ancient beast, I’m curious about the cause of the posts that don’t have a username listed (and, I think, one post that is devoid of username AND content). It’s my understanding that there was a transfer of the SDMB from one format to another back then, and some data didn’t make it across properly. So posts that old sometimes are missing things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nambla-for-real-or-just-propoganda/3877.md?page=4)