# Is name, rank and serial number really something only given by POW in movies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 17, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548 "2022-05-17T13:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/1 "2022-05-17T13:17:05Z")
This guy on Quora who appears to have been a German Army conscript and later a mercenary in the various Balkan wars says. > I saw my share of captured enemy soldiers, but I never saw anyone reciting his name, rank or number. We would have had a big laugh if someone would have done that. Then we would have told him: “Hey man, you are not in a movie! Chill out!”… > Real life is different, though. If you get captured, there is one thing you really don’t want to do and that is pissing off your enemy. Reciting name, rank and number, however, is the fastest way to achieve exactly that. > You will also arouse your interrogators curiosity: “Whom we got here? _**Only name, rank and number? Someone has received SERE (survival, evasion, resistance and escape) training? Maybe the guy is special forces? Let’s get some info out of him!” And then you are screwed.**_ > > What you should do instead, especially if you have any kind of classified information in your head, is t_o play dumb and talk and talk until they will get tired of you. Curse your own army! S_wear at your commander-in-chief! Do everything to make your captor believe that you are an unimportant, disgruntled, battle weary moron who is ready to spill the beans, but unfortunately has nothing\* interesting to say. Your captors will soon lose interest in you.\* Emphasis supplied. > **[Military Education and Training: Why do soldiers recite name and serial...](https://www.quora.com/Military-Education-and-Training-Why-do-soldiers-recite-name-and-serial-number-when-interrogated-after-capture/answer/Roland-Bartetzko?ch=10&oid=49414826&share=74e98064&srid=dyLv&target_type=answer)** > > Answer (1 of 32): The name-rank-serial number business is a product of the Geneva Accords that govern the treatment of captured combatants. When I was in boot camp, a substantial chunk of one afternoon training session was devoted to this topic. > > Our... I find it dubious? I mean giving name rank and serial number will mark you down as\< **checks notes** \> special forces. Talking to convince them you know nothing doesn’t seem to be a good idea, if you an officer or even aircrew they know you know stuff. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/2 "2022-05-17T13:36:46Z")
As I recall from the Good Old Days, the story went that the Geneva Convention said a soldier was only obliged to provide name, rank and serial number - he could not be interrogated or punished for refusing to provide more info like troop strength, objective, where HQ was, etc. And obviously, any form of coercion to get more that that out of him is a violation of the convention. Whether some forces cared about the Geneva convention or modern war crimes rules - well if they did, they wouldn’t do quite a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/3 "2022-05-17T13:38:37Z")
It’s name, rank, and unit under the Geneva convention, and that’s information we’re required to give truthfully for identification purposes. It’s like being required to show a cop your ID. Stubbornly giving your captors nothing _but_ name, rank, and unit is movie nonsense. SERE training doesn’t teach that. Also, SERE is available to all kinds of career fields that might find themselves captured, not just special forces. Captives are instructed into how to build repoire with their captors, to humanize themselves. Survival is goal #1. Your unit, once they know you’re captured, is going to assume that you’ve spilled your guts immediately, so there’s not much emphasis placed on holding out indefinitely. If you know it will take some folks a few hours to evacuate, maybe you try and stall for those few hours, but that’s not really the focus. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/4 "2022-05-17T13:42:53Z")
Also, the distinction between spies (who were fair game to be dealt with as necessary) and prisoners of war with a rank and wearing a uniform was a distinction. IIRC from those old WWII movies and novels, for example the escapees from a Stalag were supposed to wear some part of their uniform under their disguise since a foreigner in plain clothes could be treated as a spy and summarily shot, while an enemy soldier was supposed to be treated decently per the convention. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/5 "2022-05-17T14:21:52Z")
As far as the legal requirements are concerned, the Third Geneva Convention (the one that governs prisoners of war - the “Geneva Convention” is actually a package of four conventions governing different matters) provides in [Article 17](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=2D8538058860C1FCC12563CD0051ABBE): > ARTICLE 17 > Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information. > If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status. > Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity card showing the owner’s surname, first names, rank, army, regimental, personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him. > No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. > Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical service. The identity of such prisoners shall be established by all possible means, subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph. > The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand. So it’s true that legally they only need to give name, rank, number, and date of birth. How wise it is, as a matter of practice, to insist on this if the captor wants more information is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/6 "2022-05-17T16:01:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > if you an officer or even aircrew they know you know stuff. I see you haven’t met many officers … one submarine commander my husband served under was routinely called “Wingnut”, one dependents cruise I pissed off the weapons officer [doing his best Top Gun know it all handsome flirty bit and just barely stopping from actively hitting on any of the wives] with knowing basic Jane’s information [that a Chinese hichun class craft can outrun the damned torpedo] and correcting him enough that the enlisted torpedomen in the compartment were openly sniggering at him. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/7 "2022-05-17T16:52:14Z")
Met plenty. My father for one . Both granddads. Multiple uncles and great uncles. And all my friends dads and several of their mums till I was 18…. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/8 "2022-05-17T16:56:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Stubbornly giving your captors nothing _but_ name, rank, and unit is movie nonsense. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if you’re going to be a POW for awhile, you’d at least have to share any pertinent medical information with the camp doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/9 "2022-05-17T17:10:28Z")
On a side note, if you are interrogated for info, the absolute worst thing you can say is, “I won’t tell you.” That means you do know what they want, but just stubbornly won’t tell, which invites torture. Saying “I don’t know,” on the other hand, _might_ convince them. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/10 "2022-05-17T20:12:48Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Your unit, once they know you’re captured, is going to assume that you’ve spilled your guts immediately, so there’s not much emphasis placed on holding out indefinitely. When they bring bolt cutters and tell me to drop my pants, I’ll give them everything, including Mother’s PIN. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/11 "2022-05-17T22:51:13Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > So it’s true that legally they only need to give name, rank, number, and date of birth. Even then, its only so that their captors will know how to treat them. Basically if you want to be treated like an enemy combatant rather than a partisan terrorist you have to provide some form of evidence that you are such a person. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/12 "2022-05-18T00:43:37Z")
Fun fact - The US Army serial number (at least when I was in) is just your social security number, so your captors can do an online background check on you once they get it, or open a bunch of credit cards in your name. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/13 "2022-05-18T06:18:29Z")
So then identity theft becomes an ICC war crime? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2022, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/14 "2022-05-20T04:46:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Saying “I don’t know,” on the other hand, _might_ convince them. It worked for one guy during the Vietnam War. He was captured and ended up in the infamous Hanoi Hilton. He just kept saying he didn’t know anything and acted really stupid. The Vietnamese ended up nicknaming him “the incredibly stupid one”. The Vietnamese asked him to write statements against the United States, which they could then use for propaganda. Most soldiers refused to write statements like these (although some gave in under torture), but “the incredibly stupid one” said he was happy to do it. The Vietnamese then found it he couldn’t read or write and spent months trying to teach him until they finally gave up. Half the time they didn’t even bother to guard him. They let him roam around the compound with a broom or whatever. When they weren’t looking, he managed to sabotage trucks and other things. He managed to convince the guards that he needed new glasses, and memorized the route and various landmarks from the prison to the eyeglass shop in Hanoi. He also managed to memorize the name of every U.S. soldier in the camp by putting their names to a song (Old MacDonald) as a memory aid. Of course, when it came time to trade prisoners, the Vietnamese were happy to get rid of “the incredibly stupid one”, considering him to be of no value. Once released, he was able to give U.S. commanders details about the prison, the names of everyone who was there (from his song), and exactly where the camp was, according to the landmarks he had seen when getting new glasses. He also testified against the North Vietnamese about conditions in the camp at the Paris Peace Talks, and was able to give solid details that the North Vietnamese could not refute. > **[Doug Hegdahl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl)** > > Douglas Brent Hegdahl (born September 3, 1946) is a former United States Navy petty officer second class (E-5) who was held as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. After an early release, he was able to provide the names and personal information of about 256 fellow POWs, as well as reveal the conditions of the prisoner-of-war camp. > Hegdahl was born on September 3, 1946, and graduated from Clark High School in Clark, South Dakota on May 24, 1966. > Sometime in the early morning hours of April... ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/15 "2022-05-22T14:33:02Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Fun fact - The US Army serial number (at least when I was in) is just your social security number, so your captors can do an online background check on you once they get it, or open a bunch of credit cards in your name. If I have your name and some basic info like your address to separate you from others with your same name, I can get your SS number in five minutes with a phone call and $50. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/16 "2022-05-23T04:32:24Z")
I also wonder - I see that Ukraine just put a Russian soldier on trial for war crimes. I assume they work on the same model as the Napoleonic code, where the defendant in a trial cannot refuse to testify? I wonder who that squares with the code for PoW’s? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/17 "2022-05-23T04:33:55Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > I assume they work on the same model as the Napoleonic code, where the defendant in a trial cannot refuse to testify? Why do you assume that? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/18 "2022-05-23T06:46:32Z")
In any case, he pleaded guilty. “Name, rank and number” is about a practicable boundary taking them out of combat and under the protection of the Geneva Conventions. War crimes are another matter: but that all depends on how honestly/fairly any prosecution is being conducted. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/19 "2022-05-23T07:13:54Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status. The above hides a significant issue. Privileges of rank may mean significantly better treatment for officers. My grandfather was taken prisoner during the Spring Offensive of WW1. He was lucky, being an officer he was sent to an officers POW camp. Even then that mostly meant enough food to survive and good enough housing to avoid freezing to death. Mere enlisted men did not fare so well. My grandfather still needed significant care after hostilities had ended to recuperate. He did at least survive. A huge problem being that his captors were themselves on the ragged edge of survival. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548/20 "2022-05-23T07:35:27Z")
Indeed, the Geneva Conventions give officers a range of privileges during captivity, among them exemption from forced labour. The classic cineastic treatment of this is, of course, Alec Guinness’ insistence in _The Bridge on the River Kwai_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-name-rank-and-serial-number-really-something-only-given-by-pow-in-movies/964548.md?page=2)