# Is "niggardly" an acceptable word for a 4th grade teacher to use? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968 "2002-09-04T15:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/341 "2013-01-06T07:27:17Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Well, I’m opposed to just automatically changing or stopping something because it offends someone. And what words are “in” changes on a regular basis. There was a time “negro” was the preferred term, including by black people. So when “black” goes out of fashion, should we all just change the words we use? Yes. Thanks for asking. > [@](#): > > What about when whoever influences what words are PC right now decides that new word is now wrong? Then we use a different word. It’s fun and it’s easy! Here’s a quick lesson in how words work. 1. They get coined 2. They get used 3. They stop getting used This has happened to words in every language in every culture starting from the beginning of human history. Thousands, millions of perfectly useful words, taken from this world. Murdered, one might even say… murdered by the continuing ignorance of the sweaty, ignorant masses. The foul beasts. Why, I bet most of them didn’t even take AP English. And yet… somehow… …we survive. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/342 "2013-01-06T07:32:24Z")
There’s a difference between a dead language and a slightly outdated word in a widely spoken language. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/343 "2013-01-06T07:44:08Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > There’s a difference between a dead language and a slightly outdated word in a widely spoken language. When was the last time you called your fashion jewelry “gewgaws”? Do you often refer to the heavens as “the welkin”? Of course not. Why should you? It would make you sound like some kind of burbling Renfaire douchefountain. So what is so all-fired great about this one word that you feel like deliberately using it around kids even though you acknowledge that doing so will cause completely unnecessary strife and discomfort, particularly for children of an already socially disadvantaged class? Oh yeah, I forgot. It sounds like nigger. Yes, that is a very good reason! Keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/344 "2013-01-06T07:56:30Z")
It’s not a particularly great word. It’s neither good or bad. But society shouldn’t have to go out of its way to stop using a word people have decided is offensive. _Especially_ for words that only _sound like_ words people have decided is offensive. I don’t particularly care for the idea of adjusting my vocabulary every time a word goes out of fashion. I may end up sounding like an old lady at 30 because of it. But it’s my choice. That’s not to say I plan on going out of my way to use the word “niggardly” now. It was archaic before I was born and it’s never been my go-to word for miserly. But I’m not going to make an effort to stop using the words I do use if at any point people decide they’re now offensive. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/345 "2013-01-06T08:02:00Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > It’s not a particularly great word. It’s neither good or bad. But society shouldn’t have to go out of its way to stop using a word people have decided is offensive. Uh, why not? What will happen if we do? Will the sun explode? Will it cause the next ice age? Because that would be pretty bad. Also, please tell me you go around calling black people “negros” because that would totally make my week. It’s a perfectly good word and it just means black in Spanish so why are you negros complaining all the time it’s REVERSE RACISM is what it is ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/346 "2013-01-06T08:08:52Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Uh, why not? What will happen if we do? > > Also, please tell me you go around calling black people “negros” because that would totally make my week. First point - people who like the word would have to stop using it, and I’m very much against people being forced to conform if they don’t want to. Second - no, because I was raised with the “PC” term being “black”. “Negro” was before my time. If such a time came that “black” was now deemed offensive, I wouldn’t bother to change my vocabulary. I’m not getting on that euphemism treadmill. EDIT: to answer your edited post: > [@colander](#): > > Uh, why not? What will happen if we do? Will the sun explode? Will it cause the next ice age? Because that would be pretty bad. > > Also, please tell me you go around calling black people “negros” because that would totally make my week. It’s a perfectly good word and it just means black in Spanish so why are you negros complaining all the time it’s REVERSE RACISM is what it is I’m not Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/347 "2013-01-06T14:20:57Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > There’s a difference between a dead language and a slightly outdated word in a widely spoken language. Many differences, in fact. The most obvious one is that one is a language and the other is a word in the language. But the more important difference is that dead languages stop changing. They become, to metaphorize the discussion, a noun. Living languages change constantly: they’re verbs. And verbs aren’t things you study or idolize or forbid. Verbs are what you do. Living languages are performed constantly by the folks that use them. The meanings of the words therein aren’t determined by a dictionary or by an etymologist or by any expert whatsoever (possibly excepting, of course, technical jargon–but even there I’d make the case that that’s not an exception, were that case not a hijack). The meanings of the words are determined dynamically and cooperatively in the interchange between speaker and audience. And the meaning isn’t just denotation. The meaning of a word includes its phonemes, its cultural baggage, its allusions, the knowledge of both speaker and audience, and more. The more of these aspects of a word you can yoke to your purpose, the more powerful your speech will be. An ideologue, of course, might be willing to elevate principle over communication. He might decide that a phrase like “double-plus ungood,” even though it doesn’t communicate meaning as well as “malign”, is the word he wants to use, merely to promote a political agenda. Similarly, he might decide that the word “niggardly,” even though it’s going to distract and undermine his meaning more than a word like “miserly,” is the word he wants to use, merely to promote a political agenda. But a powerful communicator won’t do so. A powerful communicator chooses the word that conveys meaning most clearly, without distractions, to the intended audience. We each gotta choose whether we’re the ideologue or the communicator. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/348 "2013-01-06T14:40:55Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > First point - people who like the word would have to stop using it, and I’m very much against people being forced to conform if they don’t want to. This is another canard in this debate. No one is advocating forcing anyone to do anything. If you use “niggardly”, its not like the law will rain down on your head. The point being made here is that you’ll likely cause a raised eyebrow or raise a stink if you do, so it’s stupid to insist on using it. Words are not sacred objects that society is obligated to preserve at all costs. Every generation, certain terms and phrases are taken out of rotation. In years past, “Dick” was a common nickname for dudes named Richard (never understood that either), but how many kids are being named that now because people think “penis” when they hear it? Is this a tragedy that people need to open threads up to whine about? No. Whining about the loss of “niggardly” from the lexicon makes just as much sense. And yes (before someone brings it up), the teacher in the OP was fired. But no one here knows the full context of that incident. It is possible that this teacher had a history of bone-headed moves, and this was simply the last straw. Or perhaps the way the word was taught was mishandled so badly it was seen as larger pattern of poor judgement and incompetent technique. At any rate it happened _more than 10 years ago._ We’ve had more mass shootings in this time than we’ve had people getting in trouble over “niggardly”, and yet to read this board, you’d think more lives have been wrecked over the latter than the former. This says a lot of about privilege (yeah, I said it) among a certain demographic that posts here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/349 "2013-01-06T15:22:38Z")
Do you even read read your posts before you make them? This debate is just about the raised eyebrow, not any official sanctions for using the innocuous word. Well, yeah, the teacher was fired. But maybe the teacher was fired for other reasons! Hey, we don’t know! It could have been, so let’s just assume it was. And also it was ten years ago! And also, other bad stuff happened in the intervening ten years! Privilege! Yeah, I said it! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/350 "2013-01-06T15:32:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you even read read your posts before you make them? I don’t, but I also don’t drink my coffee before I make it. [edit: also, Gaudere’s law FTW!] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/351 "2013-01-06T16:07:06Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > But I’m not going to make an effort to stop using the words I do use if at any point people decide they’re now offensive. Not caring about the effect your words have on the people you’re speaking to is an odd way to approach communication. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/352 "2013-01-06T16:12:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t, but I also don’t drink my coffee before I make it. > > [edit: also, Gaudere’s law FTW!] See, what I do is type my posts and then read them, and then I “make” them by hitting submit. This allows me to see (sometimes) when I am posting something filled with ineffably poor reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/353 "2013-01-06T16:14:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > See, what I do is type my posts and then read them, and then I “make” them by hitting submit. This allows me to see (sometimes) when I am posting something filled with ineffably poor reasoning. I know; I was mostly teasing you for the unintentional nod you gave to Gaudere in that line. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/354 "2013-01-06T16:29:31Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not caring about the effect your words have on the people you’re speaking to is an odd way to approach communication. Here’s the problem. Phrased that way, your argument seems unassailable. But have you really laid out the only rule? If some of the people I am speaking to view “big words” with derision, should I try to use words of one or two syllables? I say no, even though that may come across as “nt caring” about the effect my words have on the people I am speaking to. So thinking it through…no, I don’t agree that “not caring about the effect your words have” is always an odd way to approach communication. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/355 "2013-01-06T16:30:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know; I was mostly teasing you for the unintentional nod you gave to Gaudere in that line. Sure, sure – sometimes even read reading isn’t enough; that one I should have read read read. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/356 "2013-01-06T16:43:46Z")
If we are going to outlaw use of a word because it might cause offense, why don’t we just outlaw “nigger” and keep “niggardly”? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/357 "2013-01-06T16:47:28Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not caring about the effect your words have on the people you’re speaking to is an odd way to approach communication. I am not willing to commit to modifying my vocabulary whenever a perfectly serviceable word falls out of favour, which they do very often in the world of labels and euphemisms. Why should I? Shouldn’t those people instead learn to grow up and not be upset about a word there was nothing wrong with five minutes ago? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/358 "2013-01-06T16:53:57Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > If we are going to outlaw use of a word because it might cause offense, why don’t we just outlaw “nigger” and keep “niggardly”? My question is, if you’re going to set people on fire and dance around their burning corpses if they object to your word choices, shouldn’t you be arrested? I mean, as long as we’re asking questions that have nothing to do with the thread… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/359 "2013-01-06T16:55:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here’s the problem. Phrased that way, your argument seems unassailable. > > But have you really laid out the only rule? > > If some of the people I am speaking to view “big words” with derision, should I try to use words of one or two syllables? I say no, even though that may come across as “nt caring” about the effect my words have on the people I am speaking to. > > So thinking it through…no, I don’t agree that “not caring about the effect your words have” is always an odd way to approach communication. I wonder if you’d address my hypothetical about closing statements in a trial. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/360 "2013-01-06T17:17:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you even read read your posts before you make them? This made for a good laugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968.md?page=19)