# Is "niggardly" an acceptable word for a 4th grade teacher to use? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968 "2002-09-04T15:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/361 "2013-01-06T17:59:35Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > First point - people who like the word would have to stop using it, and I’m very much against people being forced to conform if they don’t want to. > > Second - no, because I was raised with the “PC” term being “black”. “Negro” was before my time. If such a time came that “black” was now deemed offensive, I wouldn’t bother to change my vocabulary. I’m not getting on that euphemism treadmill. > > EDIT: to answer your edited post: > I’m not Spanish. So it’s cool if I call MtF transsexuals “shemales” because that’s the word we all used when I was growing up? Can I quote you on that? I am not sure you get this, but the euphemism treadmill is not some kind of literal treadmill that you are trapped forever on until you die unless you bravely resist its lure. It’s just something that happens. It’s not bad or good. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/362 "2013-01-06T18:07:14Z")
> [@colander](#): > > So it’s cool if I call MtF transsexuals “shemales” because that’s the word we all used when I was growing up? Can I quote you on that? Except it wasn’t really the word you used growing up. It’s never been the “in” term for transsexual (outside the porn industry) the way “negro” once was for black people, and the way “black people” was when I grew up. EDIT: that’s not to say I would care if you used it. That term doesn’t particularly bother me, though it’s inaccurate. You may as well be calling me a kangaroo for all the relevance that word has. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/363 "2013-01-06T18:14:28Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Except it wasn’t really the word you used growing up. It’s never been the “in” term for transsexual (outside the porn industry) the way “negro” once was for black people, and the way “black people” was when I grew up. It absolutely was. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/364 "2013-01-06T18:24:49Z")
Except it really wasn’t. I know this because before Ray Blanchard used the term in his Journal of Nervous and Mental disease, it meant different things entirely - all of which were equally obscure. So unless you were raised in the 90s and one of your parents were in a field that would be familiar with Blanchard’s work (and were stupid enough to think of Blanchard as anything but a quack) AND spoke to you about such obscure things, you really didn’t grow up using that word for transsexual. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/365 "2013-01-06T18:36:50Z")
Too late to edit my last post, but I forgot to also mention that I’m talking about when a formerly “PC” word loses favour and becomes “un-PC”. For example, negro. Since I was raised with “black” being the polite word, that’s what I use and have no intention to change. Even if you _did_ use the word “shemale” as an extremely young child, it certainly wasn’t the “PC” term at any point. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/366 "2013-01-06T18:41:49Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Too late to edit my last post, but I forgot to also mention that I’m talking about when a formerly “PC” word loses favour and becomes “un-PC”. For example, negro. Since I was raised with “black” being the polite word, that’s what I use and have no intention to change. Even if you _did_ use the word “shemale” as an extremely young child, it certainly wasn’t the “PC” term at any point. Newsflash: When I grew up, we didn’t have “PC” and nobody gave a shit about being fair or compassionate to transsexuals. In many places, they still don’t. Guess what? That’s no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/367 "2013-01-06T18:48:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just curious, but why have you gone through the trouble of tying ni\*\*er instead of nigger? It seems as though you have taken such care not to offend our eyes by self-censoring yourself in this way, as though you actually care how your words might come across to others. But at the same time you defend “niggardly” and only find fault in those who are bothered by it. > > Referring to “nigger” in a meta discussion is perfectly innocuous and everyone here knows that. So if you can see a good reason to modify your language even in this particular context, surely you can see a reason why “niggardly” might be a poor word to use on the street. I was using it for a rhetorical flourish, not simply referring to it. Had I simply been mentioning the word - as I will later in this post - I would not have self-censored. Plus, while you and most of the people participating in this thread know me (I would hope) well enough to know that I am not in the habit of using the word, lots of people read the boards who don’t. That’s beside the point, though. I am not “only finding fault” in those who are bothered by it. I acknowledged earlier in the thread that there are probably some people who use it _because_ it sounds like _nigger_ and not in spite of the fact. However, there is no reason to believe that most people do. > [@Sevencl](#): > > I am not willing to commit to modifying my vocabulary whenever a perfectly serviceable word falls out of favour, which they do very often in the world of labels and euphemisms. Why should I? Shouldn’t those people instead learn to grow up and not be upset about a word there was nothing wrong with five minutes ago? No, because you’re talking about completely different things. It’s not as though black people chose to be called _negroes_. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/368 "2013-01-06T18:50:48Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Newsflash: When I grew up, we didn’t have “PC” and nobody gave a shit about being fair or compassionate to transsexuals. In many places, they still don’t. > > Guess what? That’s no excuse. I don’t know when you grew up. It’s not relevant either. The fact is unless you were born in the post-2000 era when the term had entered common parlance by way of the sex and porn industries - or you were a child prodigy reading psychological textbooks at three years old - you did not grow up using the word in that context. If you’re willing to stay up to date with what formerly acceptable - nay, even “correct” - words are later deemed unacceptable, and modify your vocabulary to suit, great! You’re a nicer person than me. I personally have no desire to go to all that trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/369 "2013-01-06T19:04:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A hypothetical, for **Bricker** especially, but others can play along: > > Let’s say you’re defending a client during a jury trial. It’s closing statement time, and you’re looking at a jury with a few black people on it, and you think the verdict’s gonna be pretty close, but there’s one black person in particular you suspect is going to hold out for a not guilty verdict for your white client. > > During your closing statement, you need to admit the defendant’s stinginess. “Niggardly” is the best word for his behavior, in your opinion. > > Do you use the word? > > My suspicion is that, of course you don’t. Because the potential misunderstanding may have a consequence, and even if there’s no misunderstanding of the word, there may be a misunderstanding of your intentions behind using the word, and you have a professional duty to communicate clearly. > > If you wouldn’t use the word under these circumstances, why would you use it under other circumstances? Are you normally okay with having either your words or your intentions misunderstood? I would absolutely not use the word under the circumstances you laid out. Why? Because in that circumstance, my job is to be a zealous, effective advocate for my client, within the ethical boundaries of the legal profession. Those are the priorities in play. By the same token, I might engage in other behavior that people unfamiliar with the rules of advocacy might find even more shocking – such as not admitting to the jury that I know my client molested the child he’s on trial for molesting, because he admitted it to me. But my general conversation is bounded by no such rules. In my general conversation, I am content to possibly offend an idiot in the service of being able to use the full and rich precise language choices offered to me by English. In a trial, I am absolutely not willing to chance offending a juror, even if that juror is an idiot, unless the other harms that would result from not offending the juror are much greater. So I don’t find “the closing argument of a trial” a useful analogue to general conversation. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/370 "2013-01-06T19:40:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s beside the point, though. I am not “only finding fault” in those who are bothered by it. I acknowledged earlier in the thread that there are probably some people who use it _because_ it sounds like _nigger_ and not in spite of the fact. However, there is no reason to believe that most people do. I can count on one hand the number of people I’ve encountered who have used to this word in my presence, who did so with a pure heart. The number is zero. I read a lot, so I come across it with enough frequency in literature that I don’t bat an eye. But in speech? From regular people having mundane conversations? Never. The only time I see people using “niggardly” is in meta discussion whine tests like this thread and when someone is purposefully being a [trolling asshole coward](http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=40sEQy1PyU8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D40sEQy1PyU8). So tell me, given these experiences, why should I automatically assume benign intentions if I were to overhear a stranger, for instance, say our president acted niggardly with his concessions to the GOP? If I were to get in a heated debate with a poster here, and they, knowing full what I’m black, said I was niggardly when giving credit to their arguments (and I could totally see **Shodan** or **Bricker** pulling such a move), should I not think anything of it just because their usage was technically accurate? Or maybe the word is only safe if the context has a white person referring to another as such, eh? But if that’s the case, that suggests that maybe, just maybe, the word is too loaded to truly be serviceable and maybe, just maybe, “miserly” or “tightfisted” would be much better alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/371 "2013-01-06T21:58:35Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I don’t know when you grew up. It’s not relevant either. The fact is unless you were born in the post-2000 era when the term had entered common parlance by way of the sex and porn industries - or you were a child prodigy reading psychological textbooks at three years old - you did not grow up using the word in that context. Believe it or not, you have been misinformed about this matter of historical etymology. Maybe you didn’t know it yesterday, but here it is now, from a primary source: In the suburbs of Philadelphia in at least the early-to-mid 1990s, the word “shemale” was a term commonly used by schoolchildren to denote, among other things, a person presenting as a woman who appears to possess male genitalia. (And by the way, for most of American history, the only context in which the average person had probably ever encountered an evident transsexual would have been in works of pornography or in secret sex-worker encounters. When would they have learned a polite word for something that was never discussed in polite company?) The other one I can remember is “he-she”, which is if anything even worse. Keep in mind that users of these terms might not necessarily have meant any offense–they might not have known any other word at the time. I know I didn’t. …but now I do. I’ve learned that even if I don’t mean anything by using them, words dating from a time and place where repression and mockery were the norm carry derogatory connotations and are hurtful towards real human beings who don’t deserve to be verbally marginalized for the sake of some masturbatory “language preservation” initiative. > [@](#): > > If you’re willing to stay up to date with what formerly acceptable - nay, even “correct” - words are later deemed unacceptable, and modify your vocabulary to suit, great! You’re a nicer person than me. I personally have no desire to go to all that trouble. It doesn’t take a whole lot of effort to be nicer than a very inconsiderate person. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/372 "2013-01-06T22:18:26Z")
Yeah, excuse me if I don’t deign to reply to the first part of your post, I have no interest in treating as valid a contradiction of the literature (incidentally, I did ask some older women who were transitioned at the time before explaining that, and they call bullshit too). As for “an inconsiderate person” - I am considerate. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t have bothered to put any thought into this. I’ve considered the pros and cons and have decided I’m not in favour of peoples’ vocabularies being subject to the whims of the terminally offended. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/373 "2013-01-06T23:20:00Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Yeah, excuse me if I don’t deign to reply to the first part of your post, I have no interest in treating as valid a contradiction of the literature (incidentally, I did ask some older women who were transitioned at the time before explaining that, and they call bullshit too). Okay, what do you think we called them? Hijra? Berdache? Lady-boy? Or do you think you were the first transsexual to ever exist and you invented all those words yourself in 2007? Why in the world would I lie about this? Or do you think this is some kind of CIA-implanted false memory? How could you or any of your friends possibly know that my claim is false? Wikipedia confirms that it’s been in use for decades. Is it lying, too? Did you and your friends attend Welsh Valley Middle School too? (If so, Go Dragons!) Come, now. Kindly provide a journal link to this magical literature that puts the lie to my childhood memories or admit that you are not, in fact, the Omniscient, All-Seeing Supreme Authority on English Terms Used In The American Northeast To Describe Gender-Variant Individuals In The Late 20th Century. > [@](#): > > As for “an inconsiderate person” - I am considerate. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t have bothered to put any thought into this. I’ve considered the pros and cons and have decided I’m not in favour of peoples’ vocabularies being subject to the whims of the terminally offended. Really? Because your posts on this message board so far seem to have been quite poorly received by everyone who has offered their opinion on the matter. Have you considered switching forums? I hear Metafilter is nice this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/374 "2013-01-06T23:49:59Z")
I’ve already told you where to look. As for why your claim is false - I’m calling bullshit because I’ve been told be people a lot more educated on the topic than you that it’s bullshit. As for that last thing - what is this I don’t even. No, seriously. What does your perception of the reactions to my posts have to do with how considerate I am? I consider what I say carefully, the fact it isn’t well received doesn’t change that. I’m going to put you on ignore now, because I really, really can’t be bothered with your bullshit attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/375 "2013-01-06T23:53:09Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I’m going to put you on ignore now, because I really, really can’t be bothered with your bullshit attitude. You’re not allowed to tell other posters you’re putting them on ignore (except in the Pit), and in general the tone of your post isn’t appropriate for this forum. If you keep posting in this thread, you need to restrain yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/376 "2013-01-06T23:55:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re not allowed to tell other posters you’re putting them on ignore (except in the Pit), and in general the tone of your post isn’t appropriate for this forum. If you keep posting in this thread, you need to restrain yourself. Wasn’t aware of the no informing about ignore thing, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/377 "2013-01-07T00:43:27Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I’ve already told you where to look. As for why your claim is false - I’m calling bullshit because I’ve been told be people a lot more educated on the topic than you that it’s bullshit. Oh? What source did you cite that lends evidence to your odd allegations? I’m afraid it must have slipped my notice. Please do feel free to repeat yourself! I really am dreadfully curious. I am sorry to inform you, though, that vague references to “the literature” do not suffice. > [@](#): > > As for that last thing - what is this I don’t even. No, seriously. What does your perception of the reactions to my posts have to do with how considerate I am? I consider what I say carefully, the fact it isn’t well received doesn’t change that. Cheerfully withdrawn. I changed my mind and am now greatly impressed by your poise and decorum. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/378 "2013-01-07T14:25:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If some of the people I am speaking to view “big words” with derision, should I try to use words of one or two syllables? If you want to communicate effectively to those people, yes, of course. Why would you continue to speak in a way that you know will invite derision? Unless, of course, that’s your goal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/379 "2013-01-07T14:34:40Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I am not willing to commit to modifying my vocabulary whenever a perfectly serviceable word falls out of favour, which they do very often in the world of labels and euphemisms. Why should I? Shouldn’t those people instead learn to grow up and not be upset about a word there was nothing wrong with five minutes ago? Perhaps they should. But you only have control over your own behavior. You can’t MAKE other people think that a word means what you think it means. All you can do is deal with the consequences of what they do think it means. And that means adapting your language to your audience. Of course, that’s only if your goal is to communicate information clearly with a minimum of friction. Perhaps your goal is to encourage friction, to make some people a little uncomfortable and on edge when they’re around you. That’s certainly a thing some people do with language, but I don’t think that it’s something a 4th grade teacher should be doing when she’s at work. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968/380 "2013-01-07T14:36:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would absolutely not use the word under the circumstances you laid out. > > Why? Because in that circumstance, my job is to be a zealous, effective advocate for my client, within the ethical boundaries of the legal profession. Those are the priorities in play. So would you agree that a 4th grade teacher might also have professional priorities that would preclude using “niggardly” when she’s at work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-niggardly-an-acceptable-word-for-a-4th-grade-teacher-to-use/126968.md?page=20)