Is "niggardly" an acceptable word for a 4th grade teacher to use?

[Cheesesteak]

It’s not offensive, it’s just easily mistaken for an offensive word. Why would someone choose it? It’s not going to change your statement into mellifluous prose, it’s just going to net you an “Excuse me? Did you just call that guy what I think you just called him?”

If your goal is to launch into a etymological discussion, by all means use niggard as often as you like. If your goal is to call someone cheap, just call them cheap and get on with your day.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

It’s not easily mistaken for an offensive word.

[The_Hamster_King]

@Bryan_Ekers

“Niggard” is not and never was a “replica” of a slur, or a simulation of a slur, or a minced euphemism for a slur. It’s similarity to a slur is coincidental.

The fact that the similarity of “niggard” to “nigger” is coincidental is immaterial. If I’m walking along the beach and I discover a piece of driftwood that bears an uncanny resemblance to an automatic rifle, it would be ill-advised for me to point that driftwood at a cop even though the similarity is coincidental.

Look, sometimes we’re stuck with an unfortunate term because there’s no good alternative. We’re not going to rename the planet Uranus just because its name sounds like “your anus”. We’re not going to come up with a euphemism for Niger because it’s one letter away from “nigger”. We’re not going to insist that all the men in India named Shithead change their names because those letters spell something insulting in English. But with “niggard” that’s not an issue. It’s an obscure word with plenty of synonyms. There’s no upside to using it, and a huge potential downside.

[Namkcalb]

It turns out the son wouldn’t have to live his whole life with the trauma of being taught the meaning of ‘niggardly’ in the 4th grade, He was killed in 2010 after an argument with his heroin dealer.

[Bricker]

@Cheesesteak

It’s not offensive, it’s just easily mistaken for an offensive word. Why would someone choose it? It’s not going to change your statement into mellifluous prose, it’s just going to net you an “Excuse me? Did you just call that guy what I think you just called him?”

If your goal is to launch into a etymological discussion, by all means use niggard as often as you like. If your goal is to call someone cheap, just call them cheap and get on with your day.

Your ideas are double plus ungood.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bricker

Their discomfort is based on an error of fact.

Not necessarily–have you read the thread?

@Anduril

The person is incorrect in his being hypersensitive.

Closer–but hypersensitivity is a matter of opinion, not fact. There is no “correct” or “incorrect” about what you’re sensitive to. I have such a ridiculous needle-phobia that I cringe whenever someone gets an injection in a movie; am I incorrect to do so? If not, how is it any more incorrect to cringe when someone says the word “niggardly”?

My needle-phobia is such that I politely request people not to discuss injections around me, because it makes me really uncomfortable. I know that if folks are discussing flu shots or something like that, they’re actually talking about something really good; nevertheless, in general folks are respectful and willing to change the subject. When they’re not, I politely excuse myself. Am I incorrect to do so?

Someone else might cringe so much at the phonemes “nig” and “gur” in conjunction that they dislike the word “niggardly.” They might politely ask me not to use the word around them, and in respect I’d choose a different word. Are they incorrect to cringe?

Are you trying to point out that a person’s discomfort is never incorrectly derived and expressed?

Absolutely. Your discomfort is your discomfort, whatever its source, and it’s perfectly plausible for someone to know the derivation of “niggardly” and also to dislike the sound of the word. Heck, I know people who loathe the word “moist,” and I’ll try not to use that word around them. If someone mistakenly thinks the word derives from an epithet, by all means educate them. If someone is being a total jerk about their dislike of the word (as was the person in the OP’s story), by all means mock them. But “correct” is not a useful term to apply to discomfort.

[Bricker]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Not necessarily–have you read the thread?

Yes.

Closer–but hypersensitivity is a matter of opinion, not fact. There is no “correct” or “incorrect” about what you’re sensitive to. I have such a ridiculous needle-phobia that I cringe whenever someone gets an injection in a movie; am I incorrect to do so? If not, how is it any more incorrect to cringe when someone says the word “niggardly”?

My needle-phobia is such that I politely request people not to discuss injections around me, because it makes me really uncomfortable. I know that if folks are discussing flu shots or something like that, they’re actually talking about something really good; nevertheless, in general folks are respectful and willing to change the subject. When they’re not, I politely excuse myself. Am I incorrect to do so?

No, but please note the difference here between your reaction and the ones under general discussion. In your case, you recognize that the problem, as it were, is yours; you do not accuse others of acting improperly or demand that they change their ways. You request, as a favor, that discussion of shots and needles cease. You do not believe, or act, as though others have done something wrong.

If someone were to respond to the use of the adjective with, “I’m so sorry, but could I ask you to to use a different word? Although I know the word is unrelated to its homophonic cousin, I have an uncontrollable visceral reaction to it,” then I think the reaction would be much more muted.

[Inner_Stickler]

I think you’re backpedaling and that the reality you posit bears no resemblance to reactions on the ground, as it were.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bricker

No, but please note the difference here between your reaction and the ones under general discussion. In your case, you recognize that the problem, as it were, is yours; you do not accuse others of acting improperly or demand that they change their ways. You request, as a favor, that discussion of shots and needles cease. You do not believe, or act, as though others have done something wrong.

Let’s walk down memory lane, then–which is why I asked if you’d read the thread.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Being offended by something is an opinion; by its nature, being offended is a morally and factually neutral state.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I hesitate to describe my reaction to the word as “offended” because of people like this, people who think that their offense is a sign of moral superiority over those who give them offense.

So instead of saying the word offends me, I say it makes me cringe. It makes me uncomfortable. I wince when I hear the word. I’m not morally superior to folks who don’t mind the word; I’m not more socially aware than they are. And I’m for damn sure not going to berate someone who uses the word without trying to piss people off.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

-Some people don’t like the word “niggardly”.
-Not all reasons for disliking the words are based on ignorance (although you may think they’re foolish reasons – I’m not disputing whether they’re foolish, and indeed that has no effect on my argument)
…
-I kinda feel like people who use the word knowing it’ll upset other folks and don’t try to explain why they use the word are being jerks. I do not, however, think they’re displaying prejudice or racism.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’m not ascribing offensive intentions based on the sound of the word. In some cases, I’ll ascribe offensive intentions based on how the person uses the word: if someone uses the word in a context in which the denoted meaning doesn’t make sense, but a connotation of “like a nigger” makes sense, then I’ll ascribe offensive intentions. If someone tells me they’re going to use the word to tweak the “thought police,” then I’ll ascribe offensive intentions. Do you disagree with me in either of these cases? Am I wrong to ascribe offensive intentions? I’d appreciate your addressing this: I think this is a point that folks are missing.

In other cases, however, I do not ascribe offensive intentions. If someone describes a car as having a niggardly lack of features, I certainly am not going to think they’re trying to be offensive.

I think Ms. Walker is in the wrong, but not for the reason you state. She’s not in the wrong for taking offense at the word, if we’re using “taking offense” to mean “being bothered by.” You can’t be in the wrong for something like that, any more than you can be wrong for taking offense at the odor of patchouli.

Where she was wrong was in ascribing offensive intentions to the teacher. That’s very different.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

RR, if a friend of yours told you that they hate the word “deluge,” and would be mighty obliged if you’d just use a synonym instead, how would you respond? I can think of three different ways to respond:

1. “Nyah, nyah! Deluge! Delugedelugedeluge!” This is called being a jerk.
2. “Sorry, friend. I think the word is perfectly good, and I don’t care that you hate the sound of it. I’ll use it when I want to.” I call this being a clod, but others may disagree with me.
3. “Sure thing. I’ll say ‘flood’ or ‘inundate’ instead. If I’ve gotta use that word that bugs you, I’ll explain why.” This is what I’d do.
   …
   Now, I know that there are people that don’t like the word “niggardly.” Their reasons for disliking it aren’t really my concern (although if I know they dislike it because they misunderstand its etymology, and if I’m feeling all arrogant and busybodyish, I might correct them). All that’s my concern is that it’s simple politeness to use the easily available alternatives – and, as a bonus, I’m less likely to sidetrack myself if I use a different word.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Hmm. Imagine a word that describes a cooking technique, maybe a brief broiling. The word is “Q’at-shitish.” It obviously has a different etymology from the word “catshit.” Nonetheless, were I a chef in an American restaurant, I’d use a different word: I’d suspect that even educated diners would shy away from a dish called “Q’at-shitish ravioli.”

I’d use a different word because my goal would be to communicate the dish’s flavors and contents effectively. By using “Qat-shitish,” I’d throw people off, and they’d be imagining catshit in connection with my food. That unwanted connotation of the word would get in my way enough that I’d imperil my ability to communicate by using it.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’ve seen no one argue that the teacher was in the wrong. I’ve seen no one argue that using “niggardly” in everyday speech facilitates communication.

All I’ve seen is people make bizarre claims that the only reason anyone would be offended by the word is that they’re stupid.

My position has been, for the last ten years, that it’s possible for someone to dislike the word because of its phonemic similarities to a highly unpleasant word, and that they’re neither correct nor incorrect to do so; and that, absent a good reason to use the word around them, I won’t. I think that’s almost exactly analogous to my request that people change the subject away from injections.

My position has been, for the last ten years, that berating someone who uses the word correctly and without intent to offend is obnoxious. The teacher in the OP was totally in the clear; the parent was being a jerk.

My position has been, for the last ten years, that using the word knowing that it’ll piss people off, and deriving a nasty sort of joy from pissing those people off (“What ignoramuses!”), is obnoxious.

Do you agree now that a person’s discomfort with the word may not necessarily be based on an error of fact?

[Anduril]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Closer–but hypersensitivity is a matter of opinion, not fact. There is no “correct” or “incorrect” about what you’re sensitive to. I have such a ridiculous needle-phobia that I cringe whenever someone gets an injection in a movie; am I incorrect to do so? If not, how is it any more incorrect to cringe when someone says the word “niggardly”?

My needle-phobia is such that I politely request people not to discuss injections around me, because it makes me really uncomfortable. I know that if folks are discussing flu shots or something like that, they’re actually talking about something really good; nevertheless, in general folks are respectful and willing to change the subject. When they’re not, I politely excuse myself. Am I incorrect to do so?

Someone else might cringe so much at the phonemes “nig” and “gur” in conjunction that they dislike the word “niggardly.” They might politely ask me not to use the word around them, and in respect I’d choose a different word. Are they incorrect to cringe?.

But clearly we are talking about hypersensitivity in the context of someone feeling justified to censure another person. We’re not talking about the strawman you just erected. While your hypersensitivity may not be corrected, your acting to censure someone else merely on the basis of your hypersensitivity should be.

Absolutely. Your discomfort is your discomfort, whatever its source, and it’s perfectly plausible for someone to know the derivation of “niggardly” and also to dislike the sound of the word. Heck, I know people who loathe the word “moist,” and I’ll try not to use that word around them. If someone mistakenly thinks the word derives from an epithet, by all means educate them. If someone is being a total jerk about their dislike of the word (as was the person in the OP’s story), by all means mock them. But “correct” is not a useful term to apply to discomfort.

“Correct” is a much more malleable word than how you want it used. “Correct” is a perfectly useful term to describe the act of trying to change the behavior of someone wishing to express his discomfort over a word by censuring another person (for no reason other than his discomfort). His wanting to censure someone (as in the OP) needs to be corrected (or negatively reinforced), don’t you agree?
cor·rect
/kəˈrekt/

Verb
Put right (an error or fault).

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Anduril

But clearly we are talking about hypersensitivity in the context of someone feeling justified to censure another person. We’re not talking about the strawman you just erected. While your hypersensitivity may not be corrected, your acting to censure someone else merely on the basis of your hypersensitivity should be.

Clearly not, since this is the comment on your part that started this whole exchange:

@Anduril

If they are bothered by the word simply because its pronunciation is too close for comfort to the “N” word, then we can all help them by correcting them that they are in the wrong for being bothered by it because the words are utterly distinct.

You didn’t say “are bothered by and therefore censure folks,” and as my trip down memory lane demonstrates, there’s been plenty of conversation in this thread about folks who are simply “bothered by” the word. No strawman at all. Do you agree, therefore, that it’s incorrect to “correct” someone simply for being bothered by the word, absent any desire on their part to censure others?

[zweisamkeit]

@Namkcalb

I don’t really think about that word, like Niggard it is rather old fashioned.

Interesting. Perhaps there are regional linguistic differences at play. To me, “miser” isn’t really old-fashioned, though I’d say I hear the adjective “miserly” more often. In contrast, I had never heard of “niggard” or “niggardly” until a big media brouhaha about it (I don’t think it was the incident that prompted this thread a decade ago, but a politician - perhaps a US senator? - using it). And I’ve had a large vocabulary and read a lot, so it’s not that I have my head up my ass or anything. Heck, to this day I still only hear/read it when people either discuss the potential controversy OR are intentionally using it precisely to stir up said controversy (and then feigning innocence :rolleyes: ). But miser/miserly? I hear it relatively often.

[Suil_Dubh]

@Namkcalb

It turns out the son wouldn’t have to live his whole life with the trauma of being taught the meaning of ‘niggardly’ in the 4th grade, He was killed in 2010 after an argument with his heroin dealer.

The argument undoubtedly started after he accused his dealer of being a miser.

[Richard_E.Nixon]

Yes. Particularly when talking about Bongo Boy’s policies.

[Larry_Borgia]

Which conversation is easier and more productive for me?

Conversation 1

Steve: Hey how come you only gave that restaurant 3 stars on Yelp? I thought you loved it.

Me: Well, I’m pretty stingy with my praise.

Steve: OK, I still think you should have given it 4 stars but no big deal. You going to Rod’s playoff party this Saturday?

or Conversation 2

Steve: Hey how come you only gave that restaurant 3 stars on Yelp? I thought you loved it.

Me: Well, I’m pretty niggardly with my praise.

Steve: Wait, what? Did you…Did you just say you’re a nigger with your praise?

Me: No, Niggardly. It means cheap or stingy.

Steve: So you’re saying black people are cheap?

Me: No they’re completely different words! they are unrelated, they have totally different etymologies! We have to use these words to save the language, and not be intimidated by ignorant PC thugs…Hey where are you going?

Later

My voice mail: Hey, Larry, it’s Rod. Steve told me what you said. Uh Listen, I don’t want to be a jerk or anything, but maybe you shouldn’t come to my playoff party this Saturday. I mean, Carl and Michelle and Damien are coming, and, uh I don’t really want my black friends hanging out with someone who uses the n-word. I don’t think it’s really gonna make for a good time. Or my white friends either, you know? I don’t know, man, maybe you should take some time and think about your priorities. Anyway, good luck.

[Bricker]

@Larry_Borgia

Which conversation is easier and more productive for me?
.

In my view, the error you made was the friendship with Steve,who seems aggressively ignorant. I find it impossible to believe that someone so foolish about that issue would be much for general conversation.

[Inner_Stickler]

Steve: Hey how come you only gave that restaurant 3 stars on Yelp? I thought you loved it.

Me: Well, I’m pretty niggardly with my praise.

Steve: Wait, what? Did you…Did you just say you’re a nigger with your praise?

Me: No, Niggardly. It means cheap or stingy and is completely unrelated etymologically to slurs against black people.

Steve: Dipshit, why are you using such an easily mistaken word when there’s a plethora of words like avaricious, cheap, close-fisted, economical, frugal, grudging, mean, miserly, parsimonious, pinchpenny, scrimping, skimping, sparing, thrifty, tightfisted, uncharitable, and ungenerous that all mean the same thing and don’t run you the risk of getting the shit kicked out of you in the wrong neighborhood.

Me: You’re right, Steve, it’s stupid to think there’s some moral imperative to ‘save’ a word, especially when it’s not all that unique in the first place.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Who the hell asks about your Yelp reviews? Also, who is “bongo boy”?

[Larry_Borgia]

@Bricker

In my view, the error you made was the friendship with Steve,who seems aggressively ignorant. I find it impossible to believe that someone so foolish about that issue would be much for general conversation.

Inner Stickler’s story makes the point. Why bother to use niggardly when there are so many other words that you can use to mean the same thing? What’s the point? Steve was a little sitcomy, but aggressive people do exist, and I’d rather not risk offending them for no gain. “Niggardly” will join words like “Frigorific” or “yclept” that no one uses any more. It’s an evolution not a loss.

RNATB-it was just a plot device.

[Bricker]

@Larry_Borgia

Inner Stickler’s story makes the point. Why bother to use niggardly when there are so many other words that you can use to mean the same thing? What’s the point? Steve was a little sitcomy, but aggressive people do exist, and I’d rather not risk offending them for no gain. “Niggardly” will join words like “Frigorific” or “yclept” that no one uses any more. It’s an evolution not a loss.

Did you understand my earlier literary allusion when I suggested that reasoning such as the above was double plus ungood?