# Is nonviolent activism still effective in the Age of Infinite Crises? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459 "2013-05-15T22:38:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/21 "2013-05-16T03:28:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Tea Party? :smack: I forgot about them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/22 "2013-05-16T03:35:27Z")
Totally suck at hacky-sack. Ten of them skateboarding is nine hip surgeries a-coming. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/23 "2013-05-16T03:53:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Tea Party? He said “popularity”. Unlike OWS, the Tea Party is admired by practically nobody who isn’t in it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/24 "2013-05-16T06:55:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > He said “popularity”. Unlike OWS, the Tea Party is admired by practically nobody who isn’t in it. The OWS movement was also really unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/25 "2013-05-16T15:18:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > He said “popularity”. Unlike OWS, the Tea Party is admired by practically nobody who isn’t in it. Per [The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/may/14/occupy-wall-street-people-power-popularity), NBC/Wall Street Journal polling found that national support for Occupy Wall Street fell from 29% to 16% between November 2011 and April 2012. [Gallup](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150896/Support-Occupy-Unchanged-Criticize-Approach.aspx) had the level of approval at 24% in November 2011. Meanwhile, [Gallup](http://www.gallup.com/poll/147308/Negative-Views-Tea-Party-Rise-New-High.aspx) has support for the Tea Party dropping from 37% to 33% between March 2010 and March 2011. [Rasmussen](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2013/just_8_now_say_they_are_tea_party_members) has support as of January 2013 at 30%. The Tea Party was seemingly more popular both at its peak and at the moment, though both have seen the bloom come off their rose. Bear in mind that having more members is a popularity all its own. Leaderless movements with overheated rhetoric is probably not the best template to emulate going forward. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/26 "2013-05-16T16:22:10Z")
Its not _your_ template. It may not even be a template, its an experiment. And its not an issue of success or failure, because any experiment in which you learn something is a success. If you’ve already decided that success or failure depends on how much it aligns with what you already believe, then what is the point of experimenting? What? Govern themselves? What a foolish notion, no King? No reliable hierarchy so that the Duke of Earl knows precisely where he ranks compared to the Baron of Hamster? You can be quite sure it cannot work, because its never worked before! Change is impossible until it happens, and then its the next change that becomes impossible. _Nice, nice, very nice-- So many different people. In the same device._ Truly collective decision making is impractical and impossible. Until it isn’t. And because a thing ends is not the same thing as it fails. I thoroughly enjoyed my experience with OWS, and maybe that’s just because I’m a radical freak. And I think I said this at the time, that my fondest hope was not that a political party would result, or even a mailing list, or a donor base. My fondest hope was that it would be, and then disappear like morning fog. Perhaps to your eyes, that looks just like failure. Good. _And you know something is happening here But you don’t know what it is Do you, Mr. Jones?_ _Ballad of a Thin Man_ St. Robert of Hibbing Oh, almost forgot, words of advice: Remain cool, calm and collective. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/27 "2013-05-16T16:27:17Z")
I’m sorry, **elucidator** , but it sounds like what you are saying is that if your protest doesn’t have a clearly defined goal that you are striving towards, _any_ result can be claimed as a victory. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/28 "2013-05-16T16:30:06Z")
If it was all about groovy experimentation and not concrete, measurable political change, then sure, it’s a fine template for that, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/29 "2013-05-16T16:33:54Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Is there any other _recent_ protest movement in the US that has garnered anywhere near the attention, popularity or localization that Occupy did? I can’t think of any. They must have been doing something right. Mothers Against Drunk Driving, for loose definitions of recent. And they’ve produced results…stricter laws, more enforcement. The entire push for gay rights. And again, they’ve produced results. Gays are now accepted in the military, and gay marriage is gaining momentum almost daily. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/30 "2013-05-16T16:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > …if your protest doesn’t have a clearly defined goal that you are striving towards, any result can be claimed as a victory. The “goal” is the thing itself. And you have a rough idea of what it was about, don’t you? Foolish? Compared to what and to whom? Compared to libertarians? Compared to Republicans or Democrats? Or people who invest their retirement savings in industries that may kill us all? And I’m crazy? Compare it to evolution. Stephen J. Gould spent some considerable energy ridiculing that you might think of as the “teleological fallacy” (he may even have called it that, don’t remember). The notion that evolution “progresses” to a goal is the central foolishness. But the ancient lungfish did not crawl out of the water hoping to evolve into a man who sells furniture in Petaluma. One of the principal failures of Marxism is its belief in historical processes that are essentially inevitable. But depending on how long you’ve lived, you have some perspective on things that happened that you would never have believed would. By which we learn that we must accept that our notions of what the future will hold, or even _can_ hold, are inherently weak. We don’t know the goals, we only know the direction. More freedom, more peace, more sharing. What kinda crazy world would _that_ be? The future is a different country, people will act differently there. And maybe, just maybe, you don’t really \*have \*to know. Maybe you really can _only_ improvise, based only on ill defined notions of justice and peace. Think of it as petting Shroedinger’s cat. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/31 "2013-05-16T20:47:52Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#): > > Darn. I thought this was going to be a DC Comics thread… Yeah, I thought “they’re trashing continuity _again?!_” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/32 "2013-05-16T21:39:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering I’m a liberal who never watches Fox News this is a really stupid question. Your statement showed such a shallow and superficial understanding of the OWS movement that I just ASSUMED it was Fox News that you got it from. My mistake! > [@](#): > > Now, if you think I’m wrong then please explain how I’m wrong about the utter failure of a group that didn’t face one hundredth the opposition that the Civil Rights movement faced. > > OWS members never wound up being lynched and the didn’t face police harassment remotely as bad as what the Civil Rights movement faced. > > Perhaps a good place to start would be to compare their leaders. > > Who was the leader of the OWS movement and the face of it? > > Who was their Martin Luther King? > > Thanks. Others have dealt with these issues effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/33 "2013-05-16T21:48:14Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Is there any other _recent_ protest movement in the US that has garnered anywhere near the attention, popularity or localization that Occupy did? I can’t think of any. They must have been doing something right. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Tea Party? > [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > :smack: I forgot about them. It helps when you become co-opted as a Astroturf\* extension of one of the major parties. \*Fake “grass roots”, for those who don’t know the political slang ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/34 "2013-05-16T21:58:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Your statement showed such a shallow and superficial understanding of the OWS movement that I just ASSUMED it was Fox News that you got it from. My mistake! What did I say about the OWS movement that you disagreed with. Are you saying it wasn’t composed mostly of well-off whites? That it was unpopular? That it had not clearly defined goals? That it was poorly organized? Beyond that your powers of perception and reading comprehension could use some work. > [@](#): > > Others have dealt with these issues effectively. No, they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/35 "2013-05-16T22:02:31Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Is there any other _recent_ protest movement in the US that has garnered anywhere near the attention, popularity or localization that Occupy did? I can’t think of any. They must have been doing something right. Er… to give obvious examples the Million Man March and various immigrant protest marches. Admittedly since they were made up largely of people of color, were well-organized, had clear goals, and were smart enough to prevent whackos from attending they don’t get romanticized by well-off white people the way either the Tea Party or the Occupy movement are who’s members were, with few exceptions, bitter white losers. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/36 "2013-05-16T22:15:56Z")
Thing is, there are a lot better ways to organize to support or oppose an issue than to get a bunch of people to walk down the street holding signs. Walking down the street holding signs is a pep rally. It can be effective in showing other activists that there really are other people who support the same thing they do, and you get thrown together with people who support the same issue but who you wouldn’t normally meet. But walking down the street holding signs isn’t going to convince many people, is it? Waling down the street holding signs isn’t going to help unless the mere sight of people willing to walk down the streets holding those signs is a threat to the powers-that-be. It isn’t co-option just because the cops aren’t panicked at the sight of five guys at a drum circle in a park holding up “Free Mumia” and “Smash Capitalism” signs. It means that such people and such an action is utterly unthreatening. “Nonviolent activism” has such a connotation of demonstrations and rallies and protests. Except nowadays you can organize in other ways. The NRA, despite being a pro-gun org engages in nonviolent activism. And yes, there are NRA rallies. But they aren’t demonstrations intended to show people who weren’t aware that their neighbors really do support guns. They’re pep rallies to allow gun nuts to confer, converse and otherwise hobnob. And, you know, raise money for the NRA. But they aren’t shooting people or smashing windows or even blocking roads. That’s nonviolent activism for you. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/37 "2013-05-16T22:17:06Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Given that Occupy was basically an anarchist organization without set demands, a utopian community against Capitalism, it’s not really fair to mock them for failing to change the entirety of the socioeconomic system of the United States of America. I thought OWS did a fantastic job of bringing the idea of the 99% to mainstream America, and I believe its offshoots (Occupy Sandy, Occupy Our Homes) are still around. > > Is there any other _recent_ protest movement in the US that has garnered anywhere near the attention, popularity or localization that Occupy did? I can’t think of any. They must have been doing something right. If anything, OWS showed us that most people, despite some sympathy with the root causes of the movement’s complaints, simply do not want to live in a utopian community against capitalism. It is not so much that the movement was a failure; not a lot of people actually wanted what it was trying to sell. I study and teach at a university that supplied a lot of manpower to OWS. One of my former students was an organizer and working group leader in the movement. She was indeed white and went to one of the most expensive private universities in the country. But she, like others, was committed body and soul. Her privilege did not help her when she was arrested and handled quite roughly by the NYPD. I know plenty of privileged white people who lived down there for weeks or months and took mountains of abuse. The fact that they could have called their parents in Greenwich at any time to pull them out and _didn’t_ may make them ideologues, but it certainly makes them serious activists and not just tourists. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/38 "2013-05-16T22:47:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > By contrast, the OWS movement was basically a movement of well-off, well-educated white people who liked to pretend they were poor, oppressed rebels, who were completely disorganized, had no idea how to portray themselves or win people over to their cause, and when it failed simply went back to their suburban lives. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… to give obvious examples the Million Man March and various immigrant protest marches. > > Admittedly since they were made up largely of people of color, were well-organized, had clear goals, and were smart enough to prevent whackos from attending they don’t get romanticized by well-off white people the way either the Tea Party or the Occupy movement are who’s members were, with few exceptions, bitter white losers. So? Which is it? “Well-off, well-educated white people” != “bitter white losers”. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/39 "2013-05-16T22:49:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? Which is it? “Well-off, well-educated white people” != “bitter white losers”. The intersection of the sets of well-educated white people and bitter white losers is not exactly null. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459/40 "2013-05-16T23:00:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Thing is, there are a lot better ways to organize to support or oppose an issue than to get a bunch of people to walk down the street holding signs. > > Walking down the street holding signs is a pep rally. It can be effective in showing other activists that there really are other people who support the same thing they do, and you get thrown together with people who support the same issue but who you wouldn’t normally meet. > > But walking down the street holding signs isn’t going to convince many people, is it? Waling down the street holding signs isn’t going to help unless the mere sight of people willing to walk down the streets holding those signs is a threat to the powers-that-be. It isn’t co-option just because the cops aren’t panicked at the sight of five guys at a drum circle in a park holding up “Free Mumia” and “Smash Capitalism” signs. It means that such people and such an action is utterly unthreatening. > > “Nonviolent activism” has such a connotation of demonstrations and rallies and protests. Except nowadays you can organize in other ways. The NRA, despite being a pro-gun org engages in nonviolent activism. And yes, there are NRA rallies. But they aren’t demonstrations intended to show people who weren’t aware that their neighbors really do support guns. They’re pep rallies to allow gun nuts to confer, converse and otherwise hobnob. And, you know, raise money for the NRA. But they aren’t shooting people or smashing windows or even blocking roads. That’s nonviolent activism for you. Is political action within the system (lobbying) normally considered “activism”? Doesn’t the NRA succeed because of its political/legal finesse, versus rallying the common people towards some cause? (Not saying there’s anything wrong with that tactic, just wondering it’s a valid difference, and if it still qualifies as “activism”.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-nonviolent-activism-still-effective-in-the-age-of-infinite-crises/658459.md?page=3)