# Is North Korea ready to commit "State Suicide" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997 "2013-03-26T11:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/181 "2013-03-31T03:41:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That is highly unlikely. As said, even hitting much slower weapons under ideal conditions is hard for us, and we still can’t do it well. With a multi-warhead ICBM, we’re talking about multiple targets coming from multiple directions so fast that they’ll outrun the shockwave of an explosion unless you set it off right in front of them. > > And even if you _have_ such a defense system, the enemy can just send two, or three, or ten ICBMs to overwhelm it - and with a nuke, only one warhead needs to get past. The “Star Wars” idea of an impenetrable shield was always a joke. What was this star wars thing that was supposed to be built under Bush with all the cut backs after Bush? Using a laser may be better option than missile. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/182 "2013-03-31T03:49:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree you can’t stop a major nuclear attack. But North Korea isn’t capable of launching a major nuclear attack. The best estimates for their nuclear arsenal are that they have twenty warheads; more common estimates are they may have less than ten. And, they can only deliver them by horse-drawn wagon. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/183 "2013-03-31T05:35:08Z")
While we’re touching on anti-ICBM: Remember “Bright Pebbles”? Was that serious and would it work? The idea was to deliver enough pebbles (yes, small stones) into geo-syncronous orbit that a warhead would be destroyed by the heat from friction caused by the pebbles. I always liked the idea - especially if the pebbles could be coated with something too prevent/reduce/correct ozone depletion (or whatever we are currently blaming for global warming). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/184 "2013-03-31T05:42:04Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Remember “Bright Pebbles”? Was that serious and would it work? > > The idea was to deliver enough pebbles (yes, small stones) into geo-syncronous orbit that a warhead would be destroyed by the heat from friction caused by the pebbles. > > I always liked the idea - especially if the pebbles could be coated with something too prevent/reduce/correct ozone depletion (or whatever we are currently blaming for global warming). No. It is either a joke or an incredibly stupid idea. ICBMs don’t need to go as high as geo-synchronous orbit to get to their destination (and trying to counteract ozone depletion where there isn’t any ozone would be an exercise in futility). You’d have to put them into a much lower orbit where friction is much greater, and they would deorbit on their own. Apart from that, deliberately putting a ton of trash into orbit would make it harder to use space for legitimate purposes - a pebble can’t distinguish between an ICBM and a satellite, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/185 "2013-03-31T05:50:55Z")
“Bright Pebbles” may be a reference to [Brilliant Pebbles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative#Brilliant_Pebbles). > [@](#): > > Brilliant Pebbles was a non-nuclear system of satellite-based interceptors designed to use high-velocity, watermelon-sized, teardrop-shaped projectiles made of tungsten as kinetic warheads. It was designed to operate in conjunction with the Brilliant Eyes sensor system and would have detected and destroyed missiles without any external guidance. The project was conceived in November 1986. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/186 "2013-03-31T16:14:32Z")
I just saw an interview with Canadian foreign affairs minister and there was a question about building a portion of North America “iron-dome” infrastructure in British Columbia as, apparently, NK can now reach Alaska. So, apparently there is a plan already to build it and these latest NK’s “threats” come way too conveniently in timelines of a project like that. Can’t help the feeling that NK is to US what Hamas is to Israel - a convenient tool too small to do any serious damage yet pretty much very usable in solving domestic spending plans. But, what do I know… there’s probably perfectly well-defined reason for “iron-dome” expenditures. In some other Universe, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/187 "2013-03-31T16:56:33Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > What was this star wars thing that was supposed to be built under Bush with all the cut backs after Bush? > > Using a laser may be better option than missile. Star Wars was a nickname (in the vein of Obamacare–it was intended to mock/insult the program) for the Strategic Defense Initiative, which was a program started under Reagan. It was a broad-scope program designed to develop a total and global missile shield to counteract the Soviet’s nuclear arsenal. It proposes a combination of exotic technologies like various laser weapons mounted on satellites as well as more “conventional” ABM interceptor missiles. While some of the research bore fruit in some areas (the U.S. has a decent technological advantage on smaller scale theater level ABM technology in part because of SDI research) the global shield as conceived was not anywhere close to feasible at the time and perhaps not ever. Due to all the difficulties and inaccuracies with shooting one missile down with another, most likely to stop an extremely high percentage of missiles in a “major exchange” you’d need an array of directed-energy weapons. Their light-speed travel time would enable them to more realistically be able to knock out lots of missiles reliably. But there are many, many problems of engineering and science that need to be solved before any such thing could be created. The theory was even if we couldn’t stop 100% of incoming nuclear weapons, if we could stop a very high percentage (say 95-99%+) while the Soviets were left unable to stop essentially any of ours the exchanges between the two powers would no longer be “equal” in that we’d likely survive and they would not. This would in theory represent a permanent balance shift in the nuclear race. There’s lots of problems with this technological, strategically and etc. It ended up being a boondoggle and isn’t thought highly of today, it wasn’t a Bush era plan and nothing along these lines has been seriously attempted since. We are getting a bit off target though, SDI was a global strategic initiative to try and counteract the “mass exchange” scenario in which us and the Soviets fully launched at one another. With North Korean missile technology we’d be working more against one or two, possibly three missiles and thus it’s possible some ABM could protect us. But the state of North Korean missile technology is so poor right now, and their stockpile of warheads so small I wager it is highly unlikely they would risk a valuable warhead trying to send it to the continental United States in a war. Instead they would most likely package it in much more reliable technology (from the North Korean perspective of what technology they have that is reliable) and hit a very important target in their theater (somewhere in South Korea, Japan etc–it’s unlikely they’d nuke Seoul as their artillery barrages would allow them to destroy Seoul without needing to expend a nuke, and they’d probably try to roll their invasion directly through Seoul and would probably not want it irradiated before that.) ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/188 "2013-03-31T18:04:49Z")
What is difference of iron-dome vs anti-ballistic missile (ABM ) I keep reading in the news? So you are saying the Star Wars program was for big nukes that Russia and China has and lots of nukes being fired to the US had major engineering and science problems.But the new Star Wars program for small nukes that North Korea has and Iran may have in the future may work? Also I’m in shock that the US did not put more sanctions on North Korea or called in the army to disarm North Korea before they got to this point they are today. The thing is North Korea and Iran their view is more on personal manner where China and Russia was more what we can get out of it , so China and Russia would never strike first they know both countries would be back in the stone age and nether side had any motive to strike first . I would not be surprised if North Korea or Iran would favor suicide death out of anger where China and Russia would never do that.It also seems the new leader in North Korea has lot more anger and is motivated by personal feelings than military strategy point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/189 "2013-03-31T18:22:09Z")
Star Wars was to stop all or most of a huge barrage of missiles being launched, basically it has nothing to do with the “size” of the nukes but the scale of the shield. Star Wars was supposed to be global, in that it could protect all of NATO forces from all missile launched nuclear weapons. Newer ABM technology has been focused on smaller ABM installations designed to protect specific areas from a few missiles. No technology we have currently working has been proven to be able to stop ICBM speed missiles at all. I’m not aware of any “new Star Wars”, as Star Wars was just a nickname for SDI and I haven’t seen anyone use it to refer to any more modern ABM initiatives I have no idea what you mean by that. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/190 "2013-03-31T19:19:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Star Wars was to stop all or most of a huge barrage of missiles being launched, basically it has nothing to do with the “size” of the nukes but the scale of the shield. Star Wars was supposed to be global, in that it could protect all of NATO forces from all missile launched nuclear weapons. > > Newer ABM technology has been focused on smaller ABM installations designed to protect specific areas from a few missiles. No technology we have currently working has been proven to be able to stop ICBM speed missiles at all. > > I’m not aware of any “new Star Wars”, as Star Wars was just a nickname for SDI and I haven’t seen anyone use it to refer to any more modern ABM initiatives I have no idea what you mean by that. I keep reading in news about iron-dome and anti-ballistic missile. So if I understand the US and South Korea are to have up by 2015 network to stop nukes but not the ICBM nukes that Russia and China has? The ICBM nukes need star war system but has major engineering and science problems that need to be overcome first. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/191 "2013-03-31T20:44:30Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > I keep reading in news about iron-dome and anti-ballistic missile. [Iron Dome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome) is an Israeli antimissile system. A brand name. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/192 "2013-03-31T21:19:04Z")
And the Iron Dome is designed to stop small, short-range rockets. There is nothing it can do against even the smallest nuke. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/193 "2013-04-01T01:36:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Bright Pebbles” may be a reference to [Brilliant Pebbles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative#Brilliant_Pebbles). That’s what I was (mis-)remembering. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/194 "2013-04-01T08:44:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s not contradictory. The US has a history of kicking the crap out of another country then pouring money and effort into rebuilding, whether we are obligated to do so or not. That’s not the contradiction I was referring to. The contradiction I was referring to is right after saying we wouldn’t be doing the clean up and would leave it to the ROK and China,\*\* artemis\*\* said we’d be throwing billions of dollars into the clean up. > [@](#): > > That can be managed, IF there is a will to do so on the part of the participants. Personally, I could live with North Korea being incorporated into China. There are already a substantial number of Korean-Chinese living in China, and have been for generations, that would simply make a province where that ethnic group dominates. I really don’t get where this idea of China absorbing North Korea comes from. Korea has been culturally distinct from China for millennia and I doubt China would want to absorb North Korea even if they could. > [@](#): > > For the North Koreans it might be more comfortable becoming part of their former ally, in a socialist system, then trying to do a 180 and join with the South at this point. Whether the _Koreans_ see it that way is an entirely different prospect. Sharing the same political system is hardly grounds for the unification of two very distinct countries. For that matter, while they are both fall under the heading of communist, they are hardly the same. > [@](#): > > There are substantial cultural and language differences between the two Koreas at this point (the South has adopted quite a few foreign words and phrases the North has not, as one example, the two dialects are diverging even if at this point they’re still mutually intelligible). Should such a war occur the South will also be heavily damaged, absorbing the North may not such an easy prospect. West Germany also adopted foreign words that East Germany didn’t. It didn’t mean the German language was diverging in the direction of splitting into two mutually unintelligible languages. Whatever the cultural and language differences between the two Koreas are they are still far, far closer to each other than North Korea is to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/195 "2013-04-01T10:45:58Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I really don’t get where this idea of China absorbing North Korea comes from. Korea has been culturally distinct from China for millennia and I doubt China would want to absorb North Korea even if they could. Tibet has been culturally distinct from China for millennia but it didn’t stop China from trying to absorb them, did it? > [@](#): > > West Germany also adopted foreign words that East Germany didn’t. It didn’t mean the German language was diverging in the direction of splitting into two mutually unintelligible languages. Whatever the cultural and language differences between the two Koreas are they are still far, far closer to each other than North Korea is to anyone else. I didn’t say they were mutually unintelligible. The US, the UK, and Australia all speak English and by and large understand each other without problem, but there are significant differences between their dialects, and those differences will likely increase over time. The same with the two Koreas. The cultural differences are sufficiently great between the two nations that when people move from the North to the South they undergo three months of cultural training at a facility called Hanawon (expanded in 2002, and a second facility opened in 2004 to accommodate Northerners). North Koreans moving to the ROK need to learn all manner of things that people who grew up in the south take for granted: how to use an ATM, how to use computers and electronic devices, how to drive a car, how to shop for things such as clothes in a capitalist society, how to manage their money, and how to use the Roman alphabet. If there weren’t significant differences why would such a training program be necessary? Even with that, defectors face significant problems and usually struggle for a number of years to integrate into the ROK society. A significant number of North to South immigrants state that they had a much easier time adapting to China (most come through China before reaching the ROK) than to South Korea. (English language sources for these statements range from Wikipedia to Wikileaks) So many refugees stating that adaption to China is easier than adaption to ROK is why I earlier stated that North Koreans might be more comfortable being a new Chinese province than being part of the ROK. Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture already has a significant population of ethnic Koreans and Korean is an official language there, perhaps it could be expanded to incorporate a former North Korea. I wish to emphasize that that is _highly speculative_ and ultimately, if the current government of Pyongyang falls, the North Koreans should decide whether or not to join with the south. I don’t think we should make too many assumptions about what they may decide. Just because Germany reunited doesn’t mean Korea will, or should. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/196 "2013-04-01T12:12:11Z")
While there is no accounting for batshit crazy, I was wondering if propaganda aside, North Korea really doesn’t have much of a motive for forcibly conquering the south. South Korea doesn’t have much in terms of physical assets to seize that wouldn’t be destroyed in an invasion; almost all of their wealth is from trade with the rest of the world which would vanish under a communist regime. And then there’s the problem of assimilating the southern population- I can’t see but that the north would have to execute or put into camps virtually the entire population of the south. And finally, suppose the glorious dream of reunification came true- then what? The People’s Democratic Republic would still be in the same position it is now only with some more territory, while it would have lost the number one bargaining chip it currently possesses- threatening to attack the south. In an Orwellian “War is Peace” sense, the south arguably serves a better purpose as is. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/197 "2013-04-01T19:01:17Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > No technology we have currently working has been proven to be able to stop ICBM speed missiles at all. I went looking for the [airborne laser](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-57386136-42/airborne-laser-hits-the-off-switch/) and found it had been sent to the boneyard. Understandable, I guess. Expensive and probably not too hard to shoot down. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/198 "2013-04-01T19:53:46Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > I went looking for the [airborne laser](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-57386136-42/airborne-laser-hits-the-off-switch/) and found it had been sent to the boneyard. Understandable, I guess. Expensive and probably not too hard to shoot down. Awwww…! That project was _cool_… way cooler than the F-35. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/199 "2013-04-02T08:00:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > While there is no accounting for batshit crazy, I was wondering if propaganda aside, North Korea really doesn’t have much of a motive for forcibly conquering the south. Well, some might see it as one culture/peiople/country like, I dunno, Germany or Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/200 "2013-04-02T09:35:40Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Well, some might see it as one culture/peiople/country like, I dunno, Germany or Vietnam. Or that conglomaration of states in north America, that fought an awfully bloody war to keep it one country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=11)