# Is North Korea ready to commit "State Suicide" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997 "2013-03-26T11:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/281 "2013-04-04T15:17:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m going to nitpick slightly and pointed out that there have been wargames EVERY year since the armistice was signed, so no, the recent rhetoric did not “lead to” wargames, the wargames were already scheduled and should be about as surprising as whatever annual holiday/event you might care to name. Fair enough. I was thinking of that recent stealth bomber flight. > [@](#): > > But does the DPRK know it’s no longer working? I don’t know. I’m sure they see that threats and the nuclear tests to this point have brought about reductions in aid and haven’t won them any concessions, but I don’t know if they understand that this method is not going to work in the future either. I’ve been saying that I thought that was why they kept making bigger threats. But I don’t know if they have any other methods or if they can get themselves out of this. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/282 "2013-04-04T15:51:20Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I was just mulling over this in the shower. I formulated a crazy plan where we could follow the subway tunnels of the number 4 line, since it goes south. > > There isn’t much panic in Seoul at the moment. I think the most panicked I’ve seen people was after the sinking of the Chonan. A lot of our friends packed an emergency knapsack in case they had to get out quickly. But they were all foreigners. Koreans in general never seem to worry that NK might actually do something serious. Maybe they’re just all in denial. I just realized you are in SK. I was wondering if you could comment from SK perspective on two things I’m really interested in: 1. Do people still remember that having two Koreas was a decision beyond the reach of Korean people at the time? (I read somewhere that even while it was mulled as a possible outcome, there were protests against that idea throughout the country at the time to, obviously, no avail). 2. I seem to recall - recently - very intense process where relations got thawed to the point of openly talking about reunification. That never materialized – and admittedly I did not do my research – but I always wondered what the feeling in SK is about why that idea did not materialize? Do people think internal or external factors; if both perhaps or what? Thanks for you answers in advance. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/283 "2013-04-04T16:03:45Z")
Many Koreans still blame the US for the split. A lot of the bitterness has gone away, mostly because the generation that was directly affected by the split is dying out. Reunification talks probably hit their peak when Kim Dae Joong was president. But we’ve had a conservative in office for the past five years, and they always take a hard line approach when it comes to the North. Though I’d guess that most of my generation don’t really care about reunification anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/284 "2013-04-04T16:11:40Z")
One concerning bit of news that I don’t think is getting enough attention is that, apparently, [two North Korean submarines have gone missing](https://www.google.com/search?q=north+korea+missing+submarines&rlz=1C1DVCC_enUS398US398&aq=f&oq=north+korea+missing+submarines&aqs=chrome.0.57j0j62.6302j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/285 "2013-04-04T17:09:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Which again raises the question of how everybody can get out of this situation. The sanctions aren’t going to get relaxed unless the nuclear program goes away and serious inspections resume because the government has proved it can’t be trusted. How can Kim agree to that and still sell a victory to anybody at home? I think they can sell it pretty effectively given their strong control over domestic information. Basically, “We responded by showing our nuclear prowess, which averted a planned invasion by the United States and their traitor-puppets in the South.” I generally suspect this conflict will de-escalate without any fundamental change (to sanctions, aid etc.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/286 "2013-04-04T17:14:32Z")
If North Korea strikes, I think that that the response is FAE. Fuel Air Explosives blanketing the arty that is threatening Seoul. Along with deep penetration bombing. Many bunker busters if you will. Well lots of them. I really doubt that the tunnels and bunkers that NK has built could withstand that. Get rid of the threat of the arty targeting Seoul. If Kim wants to talk then. Fine. It’s horrible that a few thousand rounds of artillery shells might land on Seoul, but I think with combined effort the whole of NK’s artillery, that threatens Seoul could be taken out in hours. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/287 "2013-04-04T17:22:13Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > One concerning bit of news that I don’t think is getting enough attention is that, apparently, [two North Korean submarines have gone missing](https://www.google.com/search?q=north+korea+missing+submarines&rlz=1C1DVCC_enUS398US398&aq=f&oq=north+korea+missing+submarines&aqs=chrome.0.57j0j62.6302j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8). Guessing that two 50 year old subs sank. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/288 "2013-04-04T18:01:46Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > While we’re kicking around military scenarios: > > The little fat guy is getting his pic taken at all kinds of military bases - including artillery near the DMZ - not surprisingly, not only are the guns ancient and dusty - even the muzzle covers look 50 years old. > The point was - these guns are sitting under tin roofs with truly flimsy uprights - they are not even behind a wall. The only thing that looks like concrete is the floor. > > If this is typical, why are those guns still there? Why hasn’t a fleet of cruise missiles hit those guns from launchers in Seoul? The travel time would be what? Can those detonate at altitude at a given location? Can they be fitted with a ground-clearing (fuel-air, other?) warhead? > > I’m just waiting for NK to refuse to allow the SK’s in the industrial park to go home - taking civilians prisoner would seem close enough to a causus belli for current purposes If the US does that , go to war with North Korea they risk other cold war or war with China or Russia. The have to hope North Korea strikes first and China or Russia look away and does nothing for moment well US bombs most of military and government. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/289 "2013-04-04T18:09:27Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > If the US does that , go to war with North Korea they risk other cold war or war with China or Russia. Statements like these cry out for a cite, or at least an explanation. I think this is preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/290 "2013-04-04T18:11:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Statements like these cry out for a cite, or at least an explanation. I think this is preposterous. And risk what happen last time US gone to war with North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/291 "2013-04-04T18:12:35Z")
The last time we went to war with N. Korea was in 1950. Things have changed significantly since then. ETA: technically, we (or at least S. Korea) are STILL at war with them. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/292 "2013-04-04T18:21:55Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > The last time we went to war with N. Korea was in 1950. Things have changed significantly since then. > > ETA: technically, we (or at least S. Korea) are STILL at war with them. Yes but you do know that Iran and North Korea is China and Russia ally what Saudi Arabia is to the US and Europe. It true that Russia and China are getting tired of problems in North Korea because he is crazy and unstable for everyone even them.If North Korea strikes first I’m sure support for full scale war with North Korea will be supported by Russia and China . ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/293 "2013-04-04T18:22:34Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > And risk what happen last time US gone to war with North Korea? That was in the 1950s. The Soviet Union doesn’t exist any more, and China and U.S. are enormous trading partners. If you think this kind of thing could trigger a cold war, you need to explain why and how. It’s reasonable to say they have not wanted a U.S.-friendly regime in North Korea, but the current regime seems to have exhausted a lot of China’s patience. > [@sweat209](#): > > If North Korea strikes first I’m sure support for full scale war with North Korea will be supported by Russia and China . Do you really not understand that China is opposed to the North Korea nuclear program? Why would they support the Kims in a war, and what would they have to gain? If there’s a war, there will be a new government in North Korea. The most sensible move to China would be to get on board to minimize the economic and social disruption that follows. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/294 "2013-04-04T18:28:48Z")
> [@Fugazi](#): > > And that’s just Seoul proper. If you count the suburbs there’s about 25 million people to move, more than 1/2 of all S. Koreans. And slightly more than the **total** population of NK. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/295 "2013-04-04T18:29:52Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > And risk what happen last time US gone to war with North Korea? [shrug] If history repeats, we’ll get a good long-running sitcom out of it, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/296 "2013-04-04T18:32:06Z")
I’m not even sure where Russia comes into this. They’ve got their own problems. Over the last 2 decades, they’ve been increasing their trade with South Korea and were trying to set up some kind of agreement to ship South Korean products to Europe via rail through Russia. Of course, they need North Korean cooperation for this. There are signs Russia itself is getting tired of North Korean antics. Historic friendship aside, money is money, and NK is costing its allies quite a bit of coin for no obvious return. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/297 "2013-04-04T19:32:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, by that argument _Japan_ should take over North Korea, as there is a history of occupation by Japan there. Do you think that would work better? I don’t. Where in the name of god are you pulling this nonsense from? This is a complete non sequitur; Japan occupied the whole of Korea, not just the North. They most certainly did not consider it to be a part of Japan proper. You tried to use the Chinese occupation of Tibet as a precedent for why China annexing North Korea would be a plausible idea, ignoring millennia of Korean-Chinese history and stating having shared similar political systems that North Koreans might naturally prefer joining China. This is utter bullocks, and part of the Chinese justification for invading Tibet was that it has historically been considered a part of China by the Chinese. Korea never has. What Japan’s occupation of Korea has to do with any of this is beyond me. Japan considered Korea as a colonial conquest, not a part of Japan proper, and it certainly didn’t consider Koreans to be Japanese citizens. > [@](#): > > As I stated, that was a _highly_ speculative notion, a flight of fancy if you will. Indeed. All I did was point out to you exactly how much of a flight of fancy it is. > [@](#): > > Really, ANY solution will wind up being the Great Powers deciding. While I would prefer the Koreans make the decision in reality those outside will determine if there is a permanent division or a forced reunification. Just because the Germans wanted to reunite and did so successfully does not automatically mean it is the optimum solution for the Koreas. It might be, but it shouldn’t be _assumed_ to be that. It’s clearly a much better assumption than thinking it will be decided by “Great Powers” and that China is going to annex North Korea. > [@](#): > > How about this as a possible motivation: keeping 20 million or more people in their territory instead of trying to push into the rest of China. Seriously? You think that in order to avoid having illegal and unwanted immigration from poverty stricken North Korea China would want to take over _all_ of the unwanted poverty stricken North Koreans? This is literally like expecting those pushing for a border fence with Mexico to turn around and decide the best course of action is to annex Mexico into the US in order to prevent future illegal immigration. > [@](#): > > The various dialects of UK, Australian, and American English are also diverging, even if they’re still mutually intelligible. How do you think new languages happen? It’s a multi-generational process but the first step is diverging dialects. If you are aware of this, then why did you use “diverging language” as a reason why North Korea is closer to China than the South? There is no evidence that the Korean language is in any danger of fracturing into two mutually unintelligible languages in any foreseeable future, and Chinese and Korean are mutually unintelligible languages right now. > [@](#): > > But I guess you limit culture to only the arts or something. “Culture” is the entire social milieu. It’s not just poverty, it’s adjusting to a system where instead of the government giving you rations you have to actually go out and buy the food, making such decisions yourself. Instead of being issued clothing you have to go out and make selections. It’s a completely different mindset from living in a capitalistic economy. :rolleyes: No, I don’t limit culture to “the arts or something.” I also don’t confuse political indoctrination with national culture. Totalitarianism isn’t national culture. Germany wasn’t culturally closer to the USSR than to say, Austria when the Nazis were in charge but before the anschluss. East Germany wasn’t culturally closer to Romania than it was to West Germany when both East Germany and Romania were behind the Iron Curtain and ruled by totalitarian dictatorships. > [@Ogre](#): > > One concerning bit of news that I don’t think is getting enough attention is that, apparently, [two North Korean submarines have gone missing](https://www.google.com/search?q=north+korea+missing+submarines&rlz=1C1DVCC_enUS398US398&aq=f&oq=north+korea+missing+submarines&aqs=chrome.0.57j0j62.6302j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8). Not the greatest bit of news, but it’s certainly not anything unusual. South Korea doesn’t know where most of North Korea’s mini-subs are most of the time. The news articles are badly translated, but they refer to 150 ton or so mini-subs, the same kind as the one that washed up at [Gangneung](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Gangneung_submarine_infiltration_incident) in 1996. The South Koreans didn’t even know it was there to lose track of it until it grounded close enough to shore to be half-surfaced when the tide went out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/298 "2013-04-04T20:51:53Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > I wonder how many preppers there are between the Han river and the DMZ? There has been a recent spike in interest in “camping equipment” in Seoul. > [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > Where do you propose the ten and a half million people go during this experiment? The Seoul subway system. > [@Silophant](#): > > Because if SK or the US misses even one gun emplacement in that first volley, due to it being more well hidden, or a cruise missile failure, etc, then a decent size chunk of Seoul is flattened. There’s basically no way to be sure of getting all of them besides using strategic nukes to wipe out the majority of North Korea in one go, which would have deleterious effects on South Korea as well. They guns you are talking about can’t flatten a decent size chunk of very much. These are artillery not nukes. Its still better to avoid even the indecent flattening but if we had actionable intelligence that they were about to start shooting, it would be prefereable to what would happen if we let them get off one volley. > [@Alessan](#): > > I’d seriously reassess my nation’s air defenses, that’s for sure, along with my nation’s chances of winning a war against the people who sent the fighters. I’d also want to ask my leaders some very serious questions as to how this was possible. You do know they have nukes, right? Do the Palestinians have nukes? How would you feel about standing up to the Palestinians if they had nukes that could hit Tel Aviv? > [@](#): > > It’s called “brinkmanship”, and it’s something the U.S. used to be good at. Obama sucks at brinksmanship. > [@Marley23](#): > > How can Kim agree to that and still sell a victory to anybody at home? He only has to sell it to a small group of people. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Didn’t Israeli jets do this exact thing to Assad not too long ago? I doubt they would have done it if Assad had nukes. > [@Alessan](#): > > They can’t just shrug and pass the problem on to the next generation. Why not? Given time, the problem might just solve itself. > [@newcomer](#): > > I seem to recall - recently - very intense process where relations got thawed to the point of openly talking about reunification. That never materialized – and admittedly I did not do my research – but I always wondered what the feeling in SK is about why that idea did not materialize? Do people think internal or external factors; if both perhaps or what? I’m not in Korea but the conservative government abandoned the “sunshine policy” which was arguably defrosting the North South relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/299 "2013-04-04T21:43:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He only has to sell it to a small group of people. That doesn’t answer the question. **Martin Hyde** addressed how this might be spun to the public (which was my initial question), but if this is directed at the leaders of the military and other powerful insiders - some people theorize that they’re marginalizing Kim or competing with him, though I have no idea at all if that’s true - how does it come across as a win? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/300 "2013-04-04T22:06:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you really not understand that China is opposed to the North Korea nuclear program? Why would they support the Kims in a war, and what would they have to gain? If I recall, China has treaties with North Korea similar to those the US has with the South. They are pledged to defend their ally if their ally is attacked. Granted, governments don’t always keep their word, but sometimes they do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=16)