# Is North Korea ready to commit "State Suicide" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997 "2013-03-26T11:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/61 "2013-03-27T15:39:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Interesting. So, reading these two lines, you are willing to give the NK government a pass… Nope, I’m not. The ruling elite have chosen to do a lot of things that have had horribly negative repercussions on the general populace. They are responsible for those atrocities. However, saying “oo, how mean the Norks are to keep their people in the dark at night!” is disingenuous when it’s our sanctions that have a lot to do with lack of fuel in that nation. > [@](#): > > What you left out (and I can only assume you DID deliberately leave it out, since it’s clear from the rest of your posts in this thread that you do have somewhat of an idea of what’s going on in NK) was WHY those sanctions were imposed in the first place, and how this cycle has repeated many times… Well, I left a lot out because I am writing posts on a message board rather than a treatise on North Korea. As you point out, if you read that post in context with my others in this thread a lot of the “left out” stuff is actually very much there. > [@](#): > > …and how many of those imposing those sanctions have still attempted to provide humanitarian aid (not all of which has gotten to the people who need it most). It’s been my observation that some humanitarian aid is _always_ diverted. In the case of North Korea they made _very clear_ both to their own people and the outside world that they would feed the army first. Why was anyone surprised when they did exactly that? Part of the problem (as I see it) is that the outside world keeps doubting the North Koreans mean what they say. They’re actually pretty blunt and direct on some issues. The only way to get humanitarian aid to the civilians of North Korea is to provide enough that there is a surplus over what the army needs. Keep that in mind the next time someone proposes sending food or fuel or medicine there. > [@](#): > > Nor how China has provided an end around many of the sanctions, yet much of it never gets to the people (but they certainly have sufficient food and fuel for the military). China has an incentive to go around the sanctions because if North Korea implodes or falls THEY are the ones who will be facing millions of refugees coming over the Tumen and Amnok rivers into their territory. China has a significant incentive to do something to prevent that, including doing an end run around sanctions that might result in millions of starving people invading their nation. I can’t really fault them for acting in their own self interest. Again – the North Koreans have made it abundantly clear since the fall of the Soviet Union that their military comes first. They’re have been extremely plain spoken about this, and have even directly communicated this to the populace. The military eats first in that nation. There has been no subterfuge, no lying, no equivocation. The only reason anyone has even been surprised by that is because they somehow doubted the government meant what they said. Well, it turns out they didn’t, they really meant “the military eats first”. The military also gets fuel first, medicine first, everything first. We don’t happen to think that’s the way to do things _but they do_. That is how that nation is run. I think the governments of the world understand that better than the average person does, which is why there has been such restraint when North Korea bombs islands or sinks ships. At a certain point it’s not just bluster and propaganda anymore, they really do mean what they say. > [@](#): > > See, it IS the NK governments fault that the sanctions were originally imposed and have periodically been re-imposed, hardened and expanded, and it IS their direct fault that conditions in NK are what they are. The form those sanctions take, however, is on us. We should also acknowledge that we are backing North Korea into a corner. The rest of the world _assumes_ that eventually they’ll back down and submit, but what if they don’t? > [@](#): > > The various famines were their direct fault as well, since they had options and chose not to deal with the problem directly, and instead decided to become more belligerent in what looks remarkably like they were playing international extortion games. No, strictly speaking the famines were not their fault. There really were natural disasters that triggered those food shortages. How the famines were dealt with, yes, that’s their responsibility but they had some bad years due to circumstances beyond their control. First, in the early 1990’s the collapse of the Soviet union resulted in a sharp reduction in aid, and also forced the North Koreans to pay true market prices for things like fertilizer, which sharply impacted their agricultural output. China tried to fill the gap by providing food at reduced prices, as well as fuel and fertilizer, but when 1993 rolled around China fell short in its own grain production, and also needed more hard currency of their own, and felt forced to cut aid to North Korea. That was bad enough, and did lead to food shortages, but not actual full out famine. THEN, in 1995, North Korea suffered massive flooding between July and August that wiped out much of that year’s production prior as well as an estimated 1.5 millions tons of grain stored underground that was destroyed by flood waters. North Korea had no control over the collapse of the Soviet Union, the agricultural problems of their largest supporter (China), nor were they responsible for natural disaster in the form of the worst flooding seen in at least 70 years. They had grain reserves, but much of them were destroyed by natural disaster. Eventually, they did go to the rest of the world for aid, including their long-time nemesis the United States (food shipments with the US flag were explained as “tribute” to the civilian populace). Yes, they were jackholes about a lot of things but the famines were not something they engineered. They did learn something, however. When flooding occurred again in the summer of 2007, killing thousands outright and wiping out 20% of the rice and 15% of the corn fields, North Korea immediately asked for aid from the outside world instead of waiting as it had in the 1990’s. Of course, they made no acknowledgement of outside aid, that’s not how they work, but it does seem that the ruling powers do want to keep the people fed at least at subsistence levels. Their swift action in 2007 prevented another famine such as seen in the 1990’s. > [@](#): > > It’s not some cold war pay back vengeance game by the US, nor were the sanctions, either the current or former ones imposed on a whim. Saying that the NK government really doesn’t want those sanctions and really wants to provide all the good food and clean water to the people but it’s the US/UN that’s preventing it is like saying a mass murderer really wants to just be free and doesn’t like the prison he’s in. Sure, that’s true enough, but it’s a bit disingenuous, especially when you know why he was put in jail in the first place. By what right do we dictate how another country is ruled? The sanctions have not been imposed because of how North Korea treats its own, it’s because of how North Korea treats everyone else. If all they did was abuse their own people they’d be ignored, just as so many other dictatorships have been largely ignored as long as they didn’t threaten anyone beyond their borders. The latest round of sanctions weren’t imposed because there are 200,000 people in labor camps being slowly worked and starved to death, they were imposed because North Korea tested another nuke and is test-firing missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/62 "2013-03-27T15:49:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You guys accusing the United States of starting this situation are overlooking the obvious. It was North Korea that attacked the South not vice versa. And it’s not like they’ve ever repudiated the attack - as the OP indicated they’re still willing to attack South Korea all these decades later. Except that the official history taught for a couple generations in North Korea is that the _South_ launched an unprovoked attacked on the North, not vice versa as actually happened. And the South did so as the poor, deceived puppets of the Yankee Bastards or whatever they’re calling us these days > [@](#): > > North Korea has no cause to complain about the consequences of the hostile situation they’ve created and maintained. If anything, they should be thankful that American response has been so restrained. Ah, but don’t you see? The entire North Korean populace has been taught for _decades_ that it’s not their fault, they didn’t attack anyone, they were just defending themselves from unprovoked slaughter. They’re taught that the ONLY thing keeping that from happening again is their strong leader (whichever Kim is in power at the time). Name an atrocity you care to think of, the North Koreans have been taught that that is what will happen to them if the government at Pongyang ever falls. It’s a pretty powerful sort of fear, and it’s why a lot of the civilian populace do seem sincere in their support for the “Dear Leader”. > [@Smapti](#): > > And did “WE” also force the Kims to spend millions of dollars on sports cars, Hennessy and Johnnie Walker, and private audiences with basketball players? No, that is on them. > [@](#): > > Because it seems to me that if the Kims were that deeply concerned about the welfare of the people, they might forgo one or two of those things. Who said they were “deeply” concerned? They aren’t interested in bringing luxury to the masses, just keeping them adequately fed to enable them to work productively. Those are two different things. By keeping the people poor they can use small luxuries as powerful incentives, they have no interest in doing more than that. That’s not incompatible with the rulers having decadent wealth. Actually, for most of human history that’s been the norm. You keep the peasants well-fed enough to work and not be too rebellious and the rulers get the real goodies. They rulers care somewhat, but not a great deal. The rulers of the DPRK recognize it’s in their self-interest to NOT let millions starve to death, so they have acted to prevent that happening again. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/63 "2013-03-27T16:04:30Z")
Thanks for the reasoned response, Broomstick…appreciate it. Just a drive by here in response, as I’m running between meetings. [QUOTE=Broomstick] No, strictly speaking the famines were not their fault. There really were natural disasters that triggered those food shortages. How the famines were dealt with, yes, that’s their responsibility but they had some bad years due to circumstances beyond their control. [/QUOTE] Totally disagree. There were certainly natural causes for the food shortages, but the FAMINE was absolutely the NK governments fault. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Even pretending that they didn’t have the resources to simply buy food (which they did), simply asking the world community for humanitarian aid and declaring a humanitarian emergency/crisis should have been their first response…and it would have gotten them the aid they needed pretty quickly. Instead, they chose a different path, one that attempted to hide what was going on why amping up tensions and hostility. > [@](#): > > Yes, they were jackholes about a lot of things but the famines were not something they engineered. They did learn something, however. When flooding occurred again in the summer of 2007, killing thousands outright and wiping out 20% of the rice and 15% of the corn fields, North Korea immediately asked for aid from the outside world instead of waiting as it had in the 1990’s. Of course, they made no acknowledgement of outside aid, that’s not how they work, but it does seem that the ruling powers do want to keep the people fed at least at subsistence levels. Their swift action in 2007 prevented another famine such as seen in the 1990’s. But, you see, the fact that they didn’t do this during the first crisis was absolutely their governments fault, since those same options were available to them the first time. There have been times when the North has refused aid because the aid was stamped with the names of other countries. This is equivalent to saying that it’s not the parents fault if the kids starve because bad things happened and the parents refused to ask for help. Yeah, the parents didn’t have control of bad things happening, but they DID have control of whether or not they were too freaking stupid, stubborn and bloody minded TOO ask for help. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/64 "2013-03-27T16:12:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except that the official history taught for a couple generations in North Korea is that the _South_ launched an unprovoked attacked on the North, not vice versa as actually happened. And you were wondering why people don’t believe what the North Koreans say. > [@](#): > > Who said they were “deeply” concerned? They aren’t interested in bringing luxury to the masses, just keeping them adequately fed to enable them to work productively. Doesn’t this contradict the part about how the military eats first? Even if the civilians starve to death so they can’t work, the military still gets the food. Same with the idea that it is because of the sanctions that the NK is on the ragged edge of starvation. Even when the West lifts the sanctions and sends humanitarian aid, they still divert it to the military. They apparently are going to short-change their civilians no matter what sanctions are in place, or aren’t in place. > [@](#): > > The ruling elite have chosen to do a lot of things that have had horribly negative repercussions on the general populace. They are responsible for those atrocities. However, saying “oo, how mean the Norks are to keep their people in the dark at night!” is disingenuous when it’s our sanctions that have a lot to do with lack of fuel in that nation. No, not even slightly disingenuous. If we lifted the sanctions on fuel, it would go to their military just like the food does, or else Kim Jong-whoever would steal it, sell it on the black market, and use the money to build more nukes. The people of North Korea are going to suffer and starve, sanctions or no, as long as they are run by a lunatic Marxist dictatorship. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/65 "2013-03-27T16:53:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Thanks for the reasoned response, Broomstick…appreciate it. Just a drive by here in response, as I’m running between meetings. I quite understand, this will probably be my last post for awhile here as I have real life stuff to do, too. > [@](#): > > Totally disagree. There were certainly natural causes for the food shortages, but the FAMINE was absolutely the NK governments fault. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Even pretending that they didn’t have the resources to simply buy food (which they did), simply asking the world community for humanitarian aid and declaring a humanitarian emergency/crisis should have been their first response…and it would have gotten them the aid they needed pretty quickly. Instead, they chose a different path, one that attempted to hide what was going on why amping up tensions and hostility. For decades the North Koreans had an official policy of self-reliance (not always followed in actual practice, of course). Admitting they had to turn to others for help posed a threatening problem to the rulers, as it would be tantamount to admitting they weren’t in control, couldn’t handle the situation, and weren’t actually what was keeping the enemy at bay. Once they figured out they could explain aid stamped with the names of their enemy nations as either “captured” or “tribute” they became much more willing to accept it, because accepting it was proof of their power and propped up the regime rather than threatening it. It looks somewhat between ridiculous and criminal from our viewpoint, but not from their viewpoint. > [@](#): > > There have been times when the North has refused aid because the aid was stamped with the names of other countries. Correct. However, they now have a work-around for that compatible for their system which is why they ask for help much more readily. North Korea is not a democracy. The leaders don’t have to worry about being elected. They are reluctant to cut their own throats if they can find a different way to do things. I’m not saying they’re good people - by our definitions, they’re not. I’m saying that there is a certain logic to what they do, but it requires you understand where they’re coming from rather than trying to superimpose our values over theirs. > [@Shodan](#): > > And you were wondering why people don’t believe what the North Koreans say. Just because they lie about some things does not mean they lie about all. The problem is figuring out which is which. > [@](#): > > Same with the idea that it is because of the sanctions that the NK is on the ragged edge of starvation. Even when the West lifts the sanctions and sends humanitarian aid, they still divert it to the military. They apparently are going to short-change their civilians no matter what sanctions are in place, or aren’t in place. No, not even slightly disingenuous. If we lifted the sanctions on fuel, it would go to their military just like the food does, or else Kim Jong-whoever would steal it, sell it on the black market, and use the money to build more nukes. Yes. That is true. I have stated that you can not give aid to North Korean civilians without giving it to the military. The official name of the policy is called “songun”, please do look it up. The military gets first dibs on all resources. This has been in effect since 1994. > [@](#): > > The people of North Korea are going to suffer and starve, sanctions or no, as long as they are run by a lunatic Marxist dictatorship. They aren’t Marxist. They aren’t “lunatic”. They do operate on vastly different values than we do, but that doesn’t make them crazy, just different. They are a dictatorship, but much more like a divine monarchy or imperial cult than the typical dictatorship of the 20th Century. That’s different than what prevailed under Stalin or Mao. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/66 "2013-03-27T17:08:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Nope, I’m not. The ruling elite have chosen to do a lot of things that have had horribly negative repercussions on the general populace. They are responsible for those atrocities. However, saying “oo, how mean the Norks are to keep their people in the dark at night!” is disingenuous when it’s our sanctions that have a lot to do with lack of fuel in that nation. I don’t understand the disingenuous angle to this. They started a war using support from other nations and it’s our fault they suck because we won’t trade with them? They rely on South Korean investment and business management to employ their own people. This is a self inflicted wound. They crazy guy waving a gun around is a megalomaniac passed down as a legacy from the previous one. He is the reason they suck. They have all the resources they need to survive as a people. There is nothing stopping NK from being well fed. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/67 "2013-03-27T17:33:49Z")
The bottom line is that it hardly matters what type of game the North Koreans are playing, why they’re playing it or what they expect out of it. We should not be playing their game. In fact, we should be doing what we can (and we are) to encourage their game to fail miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/68 "2013-03-27T21:49:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > But, you see, the fact that they didn’t do this during the first crisis was absolutely their governments fault, since those same options were available to them the first time. There have been times when the North has refused aid because the aid was stamped with the names of other countries. Not only that, North Korea was the very epitome of biting the hand that feeds you in 1995 when South Korea and Japan were trying to give North Korea hundreds of thousands of tons of food aid. [Japan, Seoul Find Giving Rice to Pyongyang Isn’t Easy : Asia: S. Korea protests having to fly N. Korean flag on ship.](http://articles.latimes.com/1995-07-01/news/mn-19215_1_north-korea) > [@](#): > > TOKYO — Japan and South Korea are discovering that when dealing with Communist North Korea, even giving gifts can be difficult. > > As Japan on Friday completed seven difficult days of negotiations to send 300,000 tons of rice–half of it free–to North Korea, South Korea halted its deliveries of rice aid after North Korea forced a South Korean ship to raise the flag of the North in a northern port. [Korean Rice Aid Is Largely Feeding Tensions](http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/20/world/korean-rice-aid-is-largely-feeding-tensions.html) > [@](#): > > Just a month or two ago, sacks of rice seemed to be achieving what spies, politicians and tanks could not: an easing of tensions and diminished risk of war on the Korean Peninsula. > > But rice diplomacy, based on a donation of 150,000 tons of rice by South Korea to North Korea, has proven to be as much of a minefield as those that mark the tense border between the two countries. Instead of creating trust and warmth, the gift has led to a climate in which both sides now seem more irritated with each other than ever. > > Rather than expressing gratitude for the rice, North Korea last week seized one of the South Korean relief ships on charges of spying. The ship and its crew were released early this week, but a furor has erupted in South Korea over whether it is appropriate to supply assistance to a neighbor that not only looks a gift horse in mouth, but also tries to extract its teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/69 "2013-03-28T00:05:38Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > They aren’t “lunatic”. They do operate on vastly different values than we do, but that doesn’t make them crazy, just different. > > They are a dictatorship, but much more like a divine monarchy or imperial cult than the typical dictatorship of the 20th Century. That’s different than what prevailed under Stalin or Mao. Unfortunately “cults” different values can include remaining pure unto death to an ideal rather than become compromised to such a corrupted worldly goal as mere survival. That’s close enough to lunatic that I don’t care about the difference. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/70 "2013-03-28T01:21:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > However, saying “oo, how mean the Norks are to keep their people in the dark at night!” is disingenuous when it’s our sanctions that have a lot to do with lack of fuel in that nation. See: [http://www.northkoreanow.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/electricity.jpg](http://www.northkoreanow.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/electricity.jpg) Note that the date of this graphic is 2003. Sanctions began in 2006. There are undoubtedly multiple reasons for their bad economic performance. Some of this will be clarified in years following the fall of the regime (all regimes will fall eventually). Based on reading two excellent books\* on North Korea last year, I’d point to two factors on top of the inefficiencies of any highly socialist system: – Pervasive fear. – Caste system. If you are born in Camp 14, you die in Camp 14. * * * - > **[The Official Website of Barbara Demick](https://www.barbarademick.com)** > **[Blaine Harden](https://blaineharden.com/escape-from-camp-14-reviews/)** > > Amazon  Barnes and Noble  Books a Million  Indiebound iBooks Bookshop The heartwrenching New York Times bestseller about the only known person born inside a North Korean prison … ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/71 "2013-03-28T04:24:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except that the official history taught for a couple generations in North Korea is that the _South_ launched an unprovoked attacked on the North, not vice versa as actually happened. And the South did so as the poor, deceived puppets of the Yankee Bastards or whatever they’re calling us these days Are you claiming that this North Korean version of history is true? If not, how is this relevant? If the North Korean government is lying to the North Korean people, it’s just another piece of evidence that the North Korean government is at fault for their situation. Or are you claiming that the American government has forced North Korea to tell lies? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/72 "2013-03-28T04:28:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t understand the disingenuous angle to this. They started a war using support from other nations and it’s our fault they suck because we won’t trade with them? They rely on South Korean investment and business management to employ their own people. This is a self inflicted wound. They crazy guy waving a gun around is a megalomaniac passed down as a legacy from the previous one. He is the reason they suck. They have all the resources they need to survive as a people. There is nothing stopping NK from being well fed. The irony in this is that when Korea was divided in half, the expectation was that South Korea would be a failed state. Prior to the division of the country, almost all of Korea’s industry was in the northern half of the country and the southern half of the country was considered backwards farmland. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/73 "2013-03-28T10:06:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you claiming that this North Korean version of history is true? Don’t be stupid. Of course it’s not true - stating that “X has taught Y that Z is true” is not at all the same thing as believing yourself that Z is true. That’s always the problem with discussing other viewpoints - someone always assumes that because you’re trying to understand someone else you’re agreeing with them. I’m not. Their system is reprehensible and about 180 degrees from my morality and what I think is the proper way to run a society. Too many people dismiss them as crazy or insane when what they really are is very different. I’d rather try to understand them, but don’t ever, ever think that means I agree with them. One of the problems with the US/North Korean situation is that we _don’t_ understand them, and I doubt they understand us either. Therefore, one side does something expecting the other side to react a certain way and that other side doesn’t. When the two sides are as hostile as in this situation that’s not a good situation. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/74 "2013-03-28T10:07:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The irony in this is that when Korea was divided in half, the expectation was that South Korea would be a failed state. Prior to the division of the country, almost all of Korea’s industry was in the northern half of the country and the southern half of the country was considered backwards farmland. Actually, for about the first 15-20 years after the division the North enjoyed a higher standard of living than the south. At the start of all this the North did look better off. Of course, we all know that changed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/75 "2013-03-28T12:07:57Z")
And… the news is reporting this morning that the US was flying stealth bombers over Korea. OK… given the situation, why would the US announce that? Was there a point to that? Is there anyone, at this point, who doesn’t know that B-2’s based in Missouri can fly anywhere in the world and drop bombs? They’re supposed to be stealth, right? Announcing this is like saying “LOOK AT THE INVISIBLE MAN OVER THERE!!!” after throwing a bucket of paint over him. Isn’t the point of having a “stealth” anything is to NOT make it obvious what you’re doing with them? At this point I can’t see this as doing anything other than pissing off the Norks. Oh, sure, there’s a role for B-2’s in war games but this is basically rubbing Pongyang’s face in it. Way to lessen tension, guys! ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/76 "2013-03-28T12:20:04Z")
Over South Korea, I believe. I guess with two fleets off the Iranian coast the navy is busy. Those B2’s don’t need to fly from the US do they, why can’t they be based temporarily in South Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/77 "2013-03-28T12:24:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Isn’t the point of having a “stealth” anything is to NOT make it obvious what you’re doing with them?! Not really. The point of stealth aircraft is that they are hard to locate accurately using radar and other detection systems, and therefore hard to shoot down. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/78 "2013-03-28T12:31:51Z")
The B2s flew over and dropped dummy bombs on S. Korea not North. Its presumably just couter-sabre rattling to reaffirm we’ll respond if S. Korea is attacked. Plus the B2 cost a bajillion dollars so the airforce likes to use them every once and a while to pretend they have a reason to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/79 "2013-03-28T12:46:05Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Those B2’s don’t need to fly from the US do they, why can’t they be based temporarily in South Korea? The B2’s have always been based in the mainland US, they’ve never been staged from anywhere else. I think it is in part to protect the technology. Certainly, maintenence on the B2’s is easier if they have a permanent rather than temporary base, and “in the middle of the CONUS” is about as safe as these things can get. And yes, I know it was over South Korea but I don’t see the point in _announcing_ it. Sure, if someone spots one shrug and say “yeah, part of wargames” but I don’t see where trumpeting it is going to keep things moderate. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/80 "2013-03-28T13:50:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And yes, I know it was over South Korea but I don’t see the point in _announcing_ it. Sure, if someone spots one shrug and say “yeah, part of wargames” but I don’t see where trumpeting it is going to keep things moderate. Announcing? Well, some might think the difference between North and South does matter just a little bit: One nation being a close ally and the other being a batshit crazy attention-seeking loverboy threatening military action from under a haircut that’s enough to make an 80s Manchester band think twice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=5)