# Is North Korea ready to commit "State Suicide" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997 "2013-03-26T11:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/81 "2013-03-28T13:58:19Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t see where trumpeting it is going to keep things moderate. That’s just your take. US/ROK war games are announced well in advance. It’s hardly “trumpeting” them to make sure everybody knows the games are still on and additional military hardware isn’t an heretofore unannounced escalation in military hardware, especially when tensions are high. It’s worse the other way: A: So, why are you flying those B-52s over South Korea? B: They’re part of these war games. A: So, why didn’t you announce you were sending them? Did you want them a secret? B: We did announce them. I guess you weren’t paying attention. A: There’s a serious situation right now. Do you think we have time to pay attention to every little thing?! With your POV, there’s no winning. The US reminds everybody = “trumpeting” their military assets. No reminder = unprovoked military aggression. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/82 "2013-03-28T14:17:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And yes, I know it was over South Korea but I don’t see the point in _announcing_ it. Sure, if someone spots one shrug and say “yeah, part of wargames” but I don’t see where trumpeting it is going to keep things moderate. The point of _announcing_ it is to make crystal clear to North Korea that we _are_ in fact willing to respond with military force should they actually decide to carry out any of their crazy threats. If they attack South Korea, there WILL be war. And why do you think we have any interest in keeping things moderate? North Korea is using the threat of aggressive first use of nuclear weapons to try to extort economic aid from the outside world. Long-term that sort of blackmail is not tolerable, because rocket science ain’t exactly rocket science, if you get my meaning. Right now North Korea doesn’t have intermediate-range or long-range missile capabilities and so they can’t carry out their threats, but they’re going to succeed in developing them sooner or later. From the US standpoint, if the Kim regime has to fall violently, better it fall now. (And I suspect China shares the same view. I’m unaware of any missile guidance system that can only fly a missile in one direction. Any missile that can hit the US or Japan can hit China.) North Korea has its ass in a crack. Any economic modernization threatens the continued existence of the cult of Kim, because such modernization will inevitably require more contact with the outside world. They’re not going to be able to keep the average North Korean thoroughly brainwashed if they follow that path, so economic modernization is out, at least as far as the current leadership is concerned. Begging only works for so long; eventually the other nations of the world are going to reply with the equivalent of “Why don’t you just get a job?”. That leaves blackmail. And blackmail is a tricky thing to get right: if you don’t threaten your target enough, it doesn’t work - but if you overplay your hand, your target becomes motivated to do whatever is required to end the extortion permanently rather than just pay up. If the current Kim was a wise leader, he’d follow the path of Gorbachev and initiate a program of economic modernization in spite of the risk to his rule. But I don’t think that’s going to happen. At best we’re going to see North Korea keep bellowing impotent threats until the country undergoes a total economic collapse. At worst, he’s going to succeed in starting a war. And there’s not a lot we can do to influence the situation either way, as we simply CAN’T afford to keep giving Kim what he wants now that he’s made nuclear threats. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/83 "2013-03-28T15:06:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Don’t be stupid. Of course it’s not true - stating that “X has taught Y that Z is true” is not at all the same thing as believing yourself that Z is true. Then answer the rest of the post. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How is this relevant? If the North Korean government is lying to the North Korean people, it’s just another piece of evidence that the North Korean government is at fault for their situation. > > Or are you claiming that the American government has forced North Korea to tell lies? You’re claiming that the United States is the primary cause for the problems that exist in North Korea. I’m saying that the North Korean government is the primary cause for the problems that exist in North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/84 "2013-03-28T16:15:34Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The B2s flew over and dropped dummy bombs on S. Korea not North. Its presumably just couter-sabre rattling to reaffirm we’ll respond if S. Korea is attacked. > > Plus the B2 cost a bajillion dollars so the airforce likes to use them every once and a while to pretend they have a reason to exist. This, especially the second paragraph. > [@Broomstick](#): > > And yes, I know it was over South Korea but I don’t see the point in _announcing_ it. Sure, if someone spots one shrug and say “yeah, part of wargames” but I don’t see where trumpeting it is going to keep things moderate. You’ve found one of the flaws of the $2 billion dollar per plane B-2 program. The ability to project power directly from CONUS to any corner of the globe faster than you could deploy a carrier was one of the justifications dreamed up to continue the program after its original Cold War role was no longer there. Parking an aircraft carrier off the coast of a nation sends a message by its physical presence; you don’t even have to announce it. The other nation is going to know its there. Alas, it’s easy to forget the physical presence of 20 bombers parked in the middle of the Missouri. The only way for the B-2 to be used as a diplomatic tool as much as a military tool the same way the carrier has been is to do something this ham handed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/85 "2013-03-28T16:56:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And… the news is reporting this morning that the US was flying stealth bombers over Korea. > > OK… given the situation, why would the US announce that? Was there a point to that? It’s a friendly reminder to the North Korean leadership in case they do **not** wish to commit suicide. Something along the lines of - \*Dear Mr. Kim - In case you were thinking of continuing to draw breath, keep in mind that the US has planes your radar won’t be able to detect. So we can bomb the shit out of you in case you get stroppy, and you won’t be able to do anything about it except get scattered into little pieces of kimchi. Love and kisses, The USA \* And Hallmark didn’t have a card like that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/86 "2013-03-28T18:46:13Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > This, especially the second paragraph. > > You’ve found one of the flaws of the $2 billion dollar per plane B-2 program. The ability to project power directly from CONUS to any corner of the globe faster than you could deploy a carrier was one of the justifications dreamed up to continue the program after its original Cold War role was no longer there. Parking an aircraft carrier off the coast of a nation sends a message by its physical presence; you don’t even have to announce it. The other nation is going to know its there. Alas, it’s easy to forget the physical presence of 20 bombers parked in the middle of the Missouri. The only way for the B-2 to be used as a diplomatic tool as much as a military tool the same way the carrier has been is to do something this ham handed. **Dr Strangelove**. “The whole point of the doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret!” [cries] “Why didn’t you tell the world? Eh?" I would also think that a reminder like that is needed as NK also sees the news about sequestration affecting military expenses, this could had been done to show that the US is not making cuts to the B-2 program. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/87 "2013-03-28T22:28:07Z")
I actually like the B2 flyover: 1. US, under the guide of war games, sends an implicit message to Un that they can’t win 2. Sends a message to Un and his military that we flew it in SK and the North presumably had no idea it was there without the public announcement. It’s very difficult to kill what you can’t see. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/88 "2013-03-28T22:42:53Z")
So, US flies B-2 bomber in near proximity of NK and that’s a message that NK should choose peace? Because nothing spells peace better than the most advanced bomber ever made. Flyover is a friendly move. Nothing to worry about. We just happen to be there and those a-hole North Koreans are the real troublemakers. Got it. Carry on… what channel is American Gladiator on? But, seriously… what’s with attacking all these piss-poor countries around the world? I mean, seriously, isn’t there something better to do? Like Katrina mess or something? Do average Americans really think that… oh, sorry… I should stop right here… do above average Americans really think that NK is hell bent on harming them? Beyond ridiculous … ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/89 "2013-03-28T22:51:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would also think that a reminder like that is needed as NK also sees the news about sequestration affecting military expenses, this could had been done to show that the US is not making cuts to the B-2 program. This has to be sarcastic comment… it must be… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/90 "2013-03-28T22:59:40Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > So, US flies B-2 bomber in near proximity of NK and that’s a message that NK should choose peace? Yes. It’s a message that they can’t compete on a military level with the countries that would oppose them if they did something aggressive and crazy. I think they know that already, but who knows. North Korea has been threatening everybody lately, so in that sense maybe a nonviolent reminder is a good idea. > [@](#): > > Do average Americans really think that… oh, sorry… I should stop right here… do above average Americans really think that NK is hell bent on harming them? Beyond ridiculous .. No. They think North Korea is run by a bunch of very nice people. Those very nice people periodically kill South Koreans for no particular reason and sell nuclear technology to other countries on the black market and have been threatening to nuke America lately, but really, they’re very nice and it’s wrong to pick on them. Do I think North Korea is hellbent on harming Americans? No. Do I think this is a situation that needs to be taken very seriously? Yes. That’s not unreasonable or unfair, nor is it deserving of a “don’t you have something better to do?” type of response. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/91 "2013-03-28T23:31:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Then answer the rest of the post.You’re claiming that the United States is the primary cause for the problems that exist in North Korea. I’m saying that the North Korean government is the primary cause for the problems that exist in North Korea. No, sir, I’m trying to explain that _North Korea_ holds the US responsible for the problems that exist in North Korea. Please don’t confuse my reporting of someone’s opinion with my own opinion. I agree that most of the NK mess is the responsibility of the NK, however, our lack of understanding has at times made things worse rather than better. Assuming the other guy will react as you would, as you _hope_ they would, is a recipe for disaster at times. For another example - prior to Pearl Harbor the Japanese command thought that if they struck a decisive blow the US would stay out of the Pacific and let Japan do what Japan wanted. Boy, were they wrong. So, maybe we should try to understand how the DPRK views the world no matter how f’d up and wrong we think their viewpoint is so that we are less likely to start a war by accident, or use good intentions to pave the road to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/92 "2013-03-28T23:34:52Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > And why do you think we have any interest in keeping things moderate? North Korea is using the threat of aggressive first use of nuclear weapons to try to extort economic aid from the outside world. Long-term that sort of blackmail is not tolerable, because rocket science ain’t exactly rocket science, if you get my meaning. So what are the alternatives? Invasion? How well is that working out in Iraq and Afghanistan where, by the way, the population was NOT indoctrinated from birth that Americans are evil incarnate? You really think it would work out better in North Korth. Bombing campaign? Wow, let’s give them an excuse to use those nukes, right? Want to explain to Seoul and Japan and the other near neighbors why they get to eat-drink-breath nuclear fallout for awhile. Moderation maintains a status quo that doesn’t involve the death of millions. I don’t have any interest in starting another shooting war whether conventional or nuclear. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/93 "2013-03-28T23:57:37Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This has to be sarcastic comment… it must be… Nope, the problem here is ignoring that we are dealing with an old fashion dictator, I can remember several times when Hitler grasped at straws to convince himself and his henchmen that his enemies were on the run or failing. The point should be that in a reasonable environment this idea of seeing one side weak because of recent economical problems should be dismissed as we are aware of how big and advanced the military of the US is, but I think that the internal propaganda machine in NK is ignoring the big picture by design, they are convincing themselves to follow a very dangerous path based on propaganda that also adds reports of Americans not having much interest on going to war after Iraq. I do think that this is just about the only time when ham fist shows like that one should be considered to tell the megalomaniac to look at something else besides their own propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/94 "2013-03-29T00:26:33Z")
Well, the B-2 flights had some interesting results First! I can no longer access rodong - the west-friendly layout of the NK media - it filters out the bizarre translations the KCNA runs verbatim. But the grim makes-fark-look-sophisticated feed ( [http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) ) has this: No more military phone chats: [http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) Now I can’t find the article wherein the id’s the B-2’s as B-52’s (if your radar can’t pick it up, try Google News ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/95 "2013-03-29T00:27:00Z")
We don’t need nukes, we can just carpet bomb the capital city and military bases and lop off the head. Regular munitions will work just fine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/96 "2013-03-29T00:33:43Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > We don’t need nukes, we can just carpet bomb the capital city and military bases and lop off the head. Regular munitions will work just fine. Oh, there’s no question that SK and the U.S. could win a war with NK quickly. Just not quickly enough to avoid a whole lot of civilian deaths, especially in Seoul. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/97 "2013-03-29T01:11:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No, sir, I’m trying to explain that _North Korea_ holds the US responsible for the problems that exist in North Korea. Please don’t confuse my reporting of someone’s opinion with my own opinion. > > I agree that most of the NK mess is the responsibility of the NK, however, our lack of understanding has at times made things worse rather than better. Assuming the other guy will react as you would, as you _hope_ they would, is a recipe for disaster at times. Okay, to clear up any possible confusion - when you posted this: > [@Broomstick](#): > > The night-time darkness and water supply problems could be solved simply with more fuel. Well, OK, the electrical grid would need repair as much of it was looted for copper to sell for food during the 1990’s famine. Aside from that, though, prior to the collapse of the USSR North Korea was able to get sufficient fuel to run a contemporary power grid and power water delivery systems. > > Food is a slightly different issue. For one thing, post-1990’s famine there are fewer mouths to feed, which helps with that issue (mostly that was due to die-off. There are still relatively few defectors as a percentage of the population). The 1990’s famine wasn’t manufactured, it really was primarily caused by natural conditions, but unlike virtually every other country on the planet North Korea doesn’t really have access to world markets where they could conceivably purchase sufficient food to make up the shortfall (humanitarian aid was delivered, how much actually reached the civilian population is debatable. Some certainly did, but what portion of the whole is unknown) North Korea does not have access to modern fertilizers and pesticides which impairs their agricultural productivity. It also does not have mechanized farm equipment, nor the fuel to run it if it did. They essentially are operating with 19th Century agriculture and thus get 19th Century yields and problems. > > In other words, this is what severe sanctions do. Prior to sanctions, in the 1980’s and earlier, North Korea did supply an adequate diet to all its citizens, the lights were on at night, and so forth. The ruling elite don’t starve the populace and keep in the dark for their own amusement, they are apparently sincere in wanting to provide the basics to the people and a little more on top of that. They do want to provide education for all (North Korea has a 99% literacy rate and even the kids in the hellhole political prisoner camps receiving schooling), they do want to provide medical care. > > When you see a picture of North Korea at night and it’s dark that’s NOT the doing of the North Korean government, WE did that, WE denied them sufficient fuel to keep the lights on for all so the government made choices. _That’s what years of sanctions do_. North Korea is short of resources so choices are made as to who gets what. Those choices are not always the ones we’d make, but they’re being made in part because the rest of the world has refused them access. They’ve _always_ been isolationist but prior to the 1980’s they did engage in international commerce and provided a much better standard of living than at present. > > Of course, this has all devolved into a vicious cycle. The UN sanctions them, resources become scarce then rationed, the DPRK does another thing the rest of the world doesn’t like, the UN tightens the thumbscrews, North Korea gets more extreme, there’s more sanctions… North Koreans blame those outside their country for the nightly darkness and you know what? They’re right. Of course, the entire point of sanctions is to squeeze them until they cry “uncle” but what if they refuse to do so? Is this your opinion or is this just an explanation of how the North Koreans see the situation? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/98 "2013-03-29T01:13:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, the problem here is ignoring that we are dealing with an old fashion dictator, I can remember several times when Hitler grasped at straws to convince himself and his henchmen that his enemies were on the run or failing.. Godwinization of the argument never helps. Just why are Americans always hard-pressed to compare any little dud to Hitler? Even though it’s funny - when some compare Obama to Hitler then same people who would LOL at that give serious consideration to NK leader comparison to Hitler. Why not someone who might be closer to NK situation? Say… Ceausescu? There’s more argument to be made that NK is at the level of Romania in 1980’s than at the level of 1938 Germany, no? Dialling down rhetoric should be a good advice to both sides. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/99 "2013-03-29T01:22:07Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Godwinization of the argument never helps. I don’t think you really know how to use that point. > [@newcomer](#): > > Just why are Americans always hard-pressed to compare any little dud to Hitler? Even though it’s funny - when some compare Obama to Hitler then same people who would LOL at that give serious consideration to NK leader comparison to Hitler. Sorry, but I laughed at attempts at comparing Obama and even Chavez with Hitler. Once again the reason why I raised a comparison was with the propaganda machine they used, not what they did. > [@newcomer](#): > > Why not someone who might be closer to NK situation? Say… Ceausescu? There’s more argument to be made that NK is at the level of Romania in 1980’s than at the level of 1938 Germany, no? As we are dealing with following your own propaganda, that applies too. > [@newcomer](#): > > Dialling down rhetoric should be a good advice to both sides. As it is also making steps at not missing a point. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997/100 "2013-03-29T01:25:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t think you really know how to use that point. > Sorry, but I laughed at attempts at comparing Obama and even Chavez with Hitler. Once again the reason why I raised a comparison was with the propaganda machine they used, not what they did. > As we are dealing with following your own propaganda, that applies too. > As it is also making steps at not missing a point. In other words you stand by the claim that NK leader = Hitler. Great! No further questions, your Honour. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-north-korea-ready-to-commit-state-suicide/653997.md?page=6)