# Is northism evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734 "2010-12-19T18:27:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/101 "2010-12-22T15:33:17Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > \*He had brought a large map representing the sea, > Without the least vestige of land: > And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be > A map they could all understand. > > `What's the good of Mercator's, North Poles, and Equators, Tropics, Zones and Meridian lines?' So the Bellman would cry; and the crew would reply, `They are merely conventional signs!’ > > `Other maps are such shapes with their islands and capes! But we've got our brave captain to thank.' (So the crew would protest) `that he’s brought us the best, > A perfect and absolute blank!’ \* Geez, it was a simple question why do you have to be so snarky. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/102 "2010-12-23T14:11:12Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > > [@njtt](#): > > > > A considerable majority of the worlds population (and most of its land mass) is found north of the equator. It is not just Europe and North America, it is **all of Asia** , most of Africa, and a considerable chunk of South America. > > [Emphasis added by **Blake**] > > Umm, no. > > Just, no. Yes, I know that on some definitions of “Asia” a tiny part of its area (part of the Malay Archipelago), and small fraction of its population, is south of the equator. Those definitions are very far from being universally accepted: [Oceania.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oceania,_broad_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg) Your post is _at best_ a tendentious nitpick. Stated in that blunt unqualified way, and in the context of the discussion, it is positively obfuscatory. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/103 "2010-12-23T14:18:51Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Geez, it was a simple question why do you have to be so snarky. But it is the season for Carrolling. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/104 "2011-01-16T15:26:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m one of the Southernmost 'dopers (there’s all those Melbourners and Chileans, but they don’t count) and a survivor of colonialism, and I say the whole idea in the OP is stupid. You’re in Obs and I’m in Rosebank, so I’m Southernmore than you. 😛 With you on the OP, though. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/105 "2011-01-16T16:45:21Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Umm, no. > > Just, no. Brilliant argumentative technique! Which, sadly, is overwhelmed by a moment’s look at a map. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/106 "2011-01-17T15:32:28Z")
Could it be that maps were orientated north is up as a reflection of the evil condtion of the population? In other words it was not that it was evil to have north = up but because of the evil that existed, north was orientated up. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/107 "2011-01-17T15:35:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Could it be that maps were orientated north is up as a reflection of the evil condtion of the population? > > In other words it was not that it was evil to have north = up but because of the evil that existed, north was orientated up. Yes, I can see that. Kind of like the food pyramid for evil. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/108 "2011-01-17T21:17:04Z")
Someone on the previous page said that the Mercator projection overrepresents the amount of land in the north, and underrepresents the amount of land in the south. This is, in fact, incorrect: The Mercator projection actually overrepresents the amount of land in the south, and to an infinitely greater degree than the north. You see, the Mercator projection itself doesn’t actually have boundaries at the top and bottom: The maps made from it generally cut off at the latitudes beyond which things get uninteresting (generally a bit above the north shore of Greenland and a bit below the shore of Antarctica), but the projection itself extends infinitely, and never quite reaches either pole. And since the South Pole is on land but the North Pole is in ocean, this means that the northern hemisphere of a Mercator map shows an infinite amount of ocean but only a finite amount of land, while the situation is reversed in the south. As for other directions to orient a map, the Earth is a sphere, and while the rotational poles are certainly of interest, any pair of antipodal points could be used as poles for a projection. One might, for instance, imagine any of the standard map projections based around the magnetic poles, for ease of using a compass. Or a Muslim might use a map with Mecca at the “north pole” to easily determine the direction to face for prayer anywhere in the world. Or a ham radio operator might use a map with his own location at a “pole”, to easily determine the direction to aim to talk to anywhere in the world (my grandfather actually had such custom-made). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/109 "2011-01-17T21:22:29Z")
I gotcher pole right here, pal… The magnetic poles wouldn’t make for a good axis, as they tend to move around quite a bit. I’m not actually sure how a Mecca-north map is an improvement: “Which way should we pray?” “North.” “Which way is north?” “Toward Mecca.” “But which way is that?” “North.” … ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/110 "2011-01-17T21:23:41Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > But it is the season for Carrolling. At the SDMB we hold puns close to our boojum. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/111 "2011-01-17T22:44:12Z")
A magnetically-aligned map would of necessity be an approximation, since not only do the poles wander, but the Earth isn’t a perfect dipole, either. Even an approximate magnetically-aligned map would still be more convenient for compass-users, though. As for the Mecca-aligned map, what you would do is find some other more convenient landmark marked on your map that’s “north” of you, and pray in that direction. Or even find some landmark that isn’t “north”, and just see how far off of “north” it is. By comparison, using a map oriented to conventional north, I can see that the mountain with the big M on the side of it is due northeast of my place. If I want to head north, then, I find that mountain, and head 45 degrees counterclockwise from it. ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/112 "2011-01-18T04:32:33Z")
In Australian bookstores I’ve found maps that had south and north reversed, so that Australia is at the top. Pretty much meant as a joke, it seems. But there were wonderful books on Australian birds to be had. I doubt that any Australians are bent out of shape by having maps show them on the lower portion of the map. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/113 "2011-01-18T12:58:05Z")
I would assume the northern star is responsible, as it was the guiding star for the civilization that colonized/conquered/enslave the world by ship. When the compass was invented it would point to the northern star, yes it would point south too, but people already used the northern star as their guide point. A star being in the direction of ‘up’ would orientate maps in that direction. So the motivation of the European conquerors/colonizers/enslavers to take to the sea as they did would be behind the reason why the northern star was used, using that star is not evil, but the motivation for the necessity of doing so may have been. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734/114 "2011-04-16T02:14:09Z")
The South has better skies, and the Southern Cross, instead of that boring Big Deeper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-northism-evil/564734.md?page=5)