# Is Norway's government better than U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 6, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306 "2016-02-06T12:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/41 "2016-02-08T23:05:41Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The question then is what to do about it? Americans hate welfare, for good or bad (Gilens argues there’s a hefty dose of racism in that sentiment), and supposedly value hard work (and most Americans living in poverty do not work or only work part time.) So is this an instance of the government following the will of the people, or ignoring them to dance to the tune of the one percenters? What rubbish. Americans _love_ welfare as long as it benefits them-hence strong support for Social Security and Medicare which are universal programs that help virtually everyone. The programs they don’t like are “means-tested” program that are seen as not benefiting the majority but only a small minority of people-especially _those_ people. > [@Ruken](#): > > I don’t need the government or a union to interfere with my labor negotiations. I’ve worked 70 h/w to get ahead. If I moved to Norway, could I have done that? Or would the government first protect me from working the way I wanted to, and then tax most of my extra gains? If I want to improve my condition by working hard and delaying gratification, which government is better for me? The expectation is that you have solidarity with your fellow workers as well and certainly most people in Norway or other European social democracies are quite well-off and there’s no reason to think hard work pays off any less there then in America. If anything social mobility is greater in these European countries. > [@](#): > > Don’t worry; there’s plenty of union money to be had in U.S. politics. And it shows. 3/4 of Americans favor right-to-work laws, yet only half the states have them. Is that good government or bad? Most Americans don’t want unions to have more influence, so maybe that isn’t a good criterion for the goodness of government? It’s not surprising considering private-sector unionism has been systematically gutted in the past generation and isolating unions into the public sector where they can be vilified as rent seeking bureaucrats much more easily. Considering the public has little direct experience with unions and the utterly dishonest nature of the term “right-to-work” it’s not surprising most people would support it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/42 "2016-02-09T03:24:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What rubbish. Americans _love_ welfare as long as it benefits them-hence strong support for Social Security and Medicare which are universal programs that help virtually everyone. The programs they don’t like are “means-tested” program that are seen as not benefiting the majority but only a small minority of people-especially _those_ people. To steal others’ words, rubbish or no, “social insurance programs…are not generally considered ‘welfare’.” I recommend Gilens’ book _Why Americans Hate Welfare_ if you’d like to learn more about the topic. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The expectation is that you have solidarity with your fellow workers as well and certainly most people in Norway or other European social democracies are quite well-off and there’s no reason to think hard work pays off any less there then in America. If anything social mobility is greater in these European countries. They may be quite well-off, but the median American is better off, as I cited upthread. I worked hard some years back to triple my income here. How much of that would I have gotten to keep in Sweden? If it’s less, then hard work pays off less. As for social mobility, Gregory Clark disagrees with you, as he describes in _The Son Also Rises_. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It’s not surprising considering private-sector unionism has been systematically gutted in the past generation and isolating unions into the public sector where they can be vilified as rent seeking bureaucrats much more easily. Considering the public has little direct experience with unions and the utterly dishonest nature of the term “right-to-work” it’s not surprising most people would support it. The thread is about one government being better than another. If Americans overwhelmingly want right-to-work laws and don’t want increased union influence, and Norwegians want the opposite (I’m just guessing, as I don’t know any Norwegians), are those fair measures of whether one government is better than another? I am curious about your comment that the public has little direct experience with unions. I wonder how low that is these days. Being in one was only an option for about seven years of my working life, and it’s probably less or zero for many. I’d like to learn more, but I’m not sure what to search for. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/43 "2016-02-09T05:35:32Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What rubbish. Americans _love_ welfare as long as it benefits them-hence strong support for Social Security and Medicare which are universal programs that help virtually everyone. The programs they don’t like are “means-tested” program that are seen as not benefiting the majority but only a small minority of people-especially _those_ people. > > The expectation is that you have solidarity with your fellow workers as well and certainly most people in Norway or other European social democracies are quite well-off and there’s no reason to think hard work pays off any less there then in America. If anything social mobility is greater in these European countries. > > It’s not surprising considering private-sector unionism has been systematically gutted in the past generation and isolating unions into the public sector where they can be vilified as rent seeking bureaucrats much more easily. Considering the public has little direct experience with unions and the utterly dishonest nature of the term “right-to-work” it’s not surprising most people would support it. Seems nonsensical. How can you claim that right to work is utterly dishonest? You think that a person should have to pay tribute to an organization, other than the taxman, in order to work? Sounds like a protection racket. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/44 "2016-02-09T05:48:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Seems nonsensical. How can you claim that right to work is utterly dishonest? You think that a person should have to pay tribute to an organization, other than the taxman, in order to work? Sounds like a protection racket. Ever heard of the [Free rider problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem)? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/45 "2016-02-09T06:07:33Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > …I recommend Gilens’ book _Why Americans Hate Welfare_ if you’d like to learn more about the topic… About that: > **[Why Americans Hate Welfare](https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/W/bo3633527.html)** > > Tackling one of the most volatile issues in contemporary politics, Martin Gilens’s work punctures myths and misconceptions about welfare policy, public opinion, and the role of the media in both. Why Americans Hate Welfare shows that the public’s... “With one out of five children currently living in poverty and more than 100,000 families with children now homeless, Gilens’s book is must reading if you want to understand how the mainstream media have helped justify, and even produce, this state of affairs” “shows how racial stereotypes, not white self-interest or anti-statism, lie at the root of opposition to welfare programs” > [@](#): > > How much of that would I have gotten to keep in Sweden? If it’s less, then hard work pays off less. Imagine a government with high taxes for high earners vs no taxes for them. In the one with no taxes, the hard word would pay off more… but there is the idea of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, especially if the few can afford to sacrifice things a bit. > [@](#): > > The thread is about one government being better than another. If Americans overwhelmingly want right-to-work laws and don’t want increased union influence, and Norwegians want the opposite (I’m just guessing, as I don’t know any Norwegians), are those fair measures of whether one government is better than another? Good point I assumed that Americans would also like unions. > [@](#): > > I am curious about your comment that the public has little direct experience with unions. I wonder how low that is these days. Being in one was only an option for about seven years of my working life, and it’s probably less or zero for many. I’d like to learn more, but I’m not sure what to search for. Apparently around 11% of U.S. workers are in a union… so that means not very much direct experience. And even if they had direct experience maybe the low amount of union membership means they don’t have much power. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/46 "2016-02-09T06:12:55Z")
> **[Right-to-work law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law)** > > Employment > In the context of labor law in the United States, the term right-to-work laws refers to state laws that prohibit union security agreements between employers and labor unions. Such agreements can be incorporated into union contracts to require employees who are not union members to contribute to the costs of union representation. Unlike the right to work definition as a human right in international law, U.S. right-to-work laws do not aim to provide a general guarantee of employment ... > [@](#): > > … **Right-to-work laws do not aim to provide general guarantee of employment to people seeking work** , but rather are a government regulation of the contractual agreements between employers and labor unions that prevents them from excluding non-union workers… In other words reducing the power of the unions allowing “scabs”. So if there is a strike they could sack all of the union members because the employer is free to hire more desperate individuals. > **[Strikebreaker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker)** > > A strikebreaker (sometimes pejoratively called a scab, blackleg, bootlicker, blackguard or knobstick) is a person who works despite an ongoing strike. Strikebreakers are either workers (union members or not) who cross picket lines to work or workers who were not employed by the company before the dispute but hired after or during the strike to keep the organization running. Some countries have passed laws outlawing strikebreakers to give more power to trade unions, other countries have passed rig... > [@](#): > > …However, strikebreakers are used **far more frequently** in the United States than in **any other** industrialized country… ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/47 "2016-02-09T06:17:31Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > To steal others’ words, rubbish or no, “social insurance programs…are not generally considered ‘welfare’.” I recommend Gilens’ book _Why Americans Hate Welfare_ if you’d like to learn more about the topic. So what do you consider “welfare” and what is the difference? > [@](#): > > They may be quite well-off, but the median American is better off, as I cited upthread. I worked hard some years back to triple my income here. How much of that would I have gotten to keep in Sweden? If it’s less, then hard work pays off less. As for social mobility, Gregory Clark disagrees with you, as he describes in _The Son Also Rises_. The consensus is clear that compared to Europe, America’s socioeconomic mobility is lower: [http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/). And how of that difference in median prosperity is due to geographic considerations such as Americans being more likely to own a better house due to there being more land in the United States? Of course pure income measures aren’t everything in determining quality of life, assuming one has at least a reasonable lower middle-class standard of living, getting a few weeks of vacation might be far better then having an extra 10 grand. > [@](#): > > The thread is about one government being better than another. If Americans overwhelmingly want right-to-work laws and don’t want increased union influence, and Norwegians want the opposite (I’m just guessing, as I don’t know any Norwegians), are those fair measures of whether one government is better than another? Yes, because very bad governments can be reflective of public opinion-for example Jim Crow undoubtedly had overwhelming white public support yet it doesn’t make those policies “good”. > [@](#): > > I am curious about your comment that the public has little direct experience with unions. I wonder how low that is these days. Being in one was only an option for about seven years of my working life, and it’s probably less or zero for many. I’d like to learn more, but I’m not sure what to search for. Just google private sector unionization rates over time. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/48 "2016-02-09T06:20:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Ever heard of the [Free rider problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem)? Ah the people on welfare? At least non union workers are actually working. Have you dealt with union workers and their stupid ass work restrictions? You ever have to get rid of a non performing Union member? Look at the problems the government has with its union workers. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/49 "2016-02-09T06:24:14Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > [Right-to-work law - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law) > > In other words reducing the power of the unions allowing “scabs”. So if there is a strike they could sack all of the union members because the employer is free to hire more desperate individuals. > > [Strikebreaker - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker) If you don’t think labor is a commodity you haven’t been paying attention tomChinas ascension. Unless you think the immediate post WWII global conditions are returning, which they aren’t, you might want to stop advocating for inefficient workers. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/50 "2016-02-09T06:40:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If you don’t think labor is a commodity you haven’t been paying attention to Chinas ascension. > **[The Economist Democracy Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index)** > > The Democracy Index published by the Economist Group is an index measuring the quality of democracy across the world. This quantitative and comparative assessment is centrally concerned with democratic rights and democratic institutions. The methodology for assessing democracy used in this democracy index is according to Economist Intelligence Unit which is part of the Economist Group, a UK-based private company, which publishes the weekly newspaper The Economist. The index is based on 60 indic... China is classed as an authoritarian regime. Are you saying that countries should aim to be more like China? > [@](#): > > Unless you think the immediate post WWII global conditions are returning, which they aren’t, you might want to stop advocating for inefficient workers. Well wages could be reduced (making workers more “efficient”) by having “right-to-work” laws, etc, so that unions stop having so much power. Having a high minimum wage also makes workers more inefficient. Do you think that minimum wage laws should be scrapped? It seems China does have minimum wage laws but I think they are reducing worker efficiency. > **[Minimum wage in China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_China)** > > As different parts of China have very different standards of living, China does not set one minimum wage for the entire nation. Instead, the task of setting minimum wages is delegated to the local governments. Each province, municipality, or region sets its own minimum wage in accordance with its own local conditions. According to the country's Employment Promotion Plan, minimum wages are supposed to increase in accordance with local living standards by at least 13 percent through 2015 and be no ... ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/51 "2016-02-09T06:56:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ah the people on welfare? > > At least non union workers are actually working. Have you dealt with union workers and their stupid ass work restrictions? > **[Eight-hour day movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_Kingdom)** > > The eight-hour day movement (also known as the 40-hour week movement or the short-time movement) was a social movement to regulate the length of a working day, preventing excesses and abuses of working time. > The modern movement originated in the Industrial Revolution in Britain, where industrial production in large factories transformed working life. At that time, the working day could range from 10 to 16 hours, the work week was typically six days, and child labour was common. In 1593, Spain... “The Factory Act of 1833 limited the work day for children in factories. Those aged 9–13 could work only eight hours, 14-18 12 hours” If they want to work more than 12 hours they should be able to right? > [@](#): > > You ever have to get rid of a non performing Union member? Look at the problems the government has with its union workers. I think in Australia you need to give them a warning or something. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/52 "2016-02-09T11:10:11Z")
When my Danish cousin came to visit he was so surprised when visiting a Home Depot store all the items available for the homeowner to install themselves. Electrical panel breakers, plumbing supplies, roofing materials, cement, etc… all available for the homeowner to buy and go install themselves. You see in Denmark if you want electrical or plumbing or any other work done on your house - you cannot do it yourself. You must hire someone. Yes this leads to work being done more professionally but it also raises cost. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/53 "2016-02-09T11:14:40Z")
You cannot really compare taxes in the 2 countries because different countries tax different items. For example in Denmark they tax soda very high like we in the US tax beer and cigarettes (interestingly cigarettes are one of the few things cheaper in Denmark than in the US). If you go to a McDonalds in Denmark the drink sizes are smaller plus no free refills. Buy an ice cream cone in Denmark and see just how small it is. Also owning a car is more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/54 "2016-02-09T11:47:25Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > When my Danish cousin came to visit he was so surprised when visiting a Home Depot store all the items available for the homeowner to install themselves. Electrical panel breakers, plumbing supplies, roofing materials, cement, etc… all available for the homeowner to buy and go install themselves. > > You see in Denmark if you want electrical or plumbing or any other work done on your house - you cannot do it yourself. You must hire someone. Yes this leads to work being done more professionally but it also raises cost. Seems to be a lot of DIY places in Denmark… > **[Danish DIYs, Do-It-Yourself, Building Materials, Paint, Tools](https://www.prodenmark.com/danish-retail-chains/danish-diy-do-it-yourself/)** > > Find information about the largest DIY chains and builders’ merchants in Denmark: XL-BYG, Bygma, STARK, jem & fix, Silvan, BAUHAUS and Flügger. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/55 "2016-02-09T12:38:18Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > About that: > [Why Americans Hate Welfare: Race, Media, and the Politics of Antipoverty Policy, Gilens](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/W/bo3633527.html) > “With one out of five children currently living in poverty and more than 100,000 families with children now homeless, Gilens’s book is must reading if you want to understand how the mainstream media have helped justify, and even produce, this state of affairs” > “shows how racial stereotypes, not white self-interest or anti-statism, lie at the root of opposition to welfare programs” Yes, that’s why I wrote, “Gilens argues there’s a hefty dose of racism in that sentiment.” So since I already pointed that out, what point are you trying to make? To expand on your quote of the summary, welfare was (and perhaps still is; the book is old) portrayed as money taken away from whites and given to blacks. Which of course is nonsensical; more welfare recipients are white. Not that it should matter. And that brings me to another question. I’ve asked several times something to the effect of whether a good government better reflects the will of the people. But what if the people are a bunch of racist fucks? We certainly have our share here. Didn’t Americans not majority-approve of interracial marriage until some embarrassingly late year? So I still don’t think we’ve pinned down what makes a government better. > [@JohnClay](#): > > Imagine a government with high taxes for high earners vs no taxes for them. In the one with no taxes, the hard word would pay off more… but there is the idea of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, especially if the few can afford to sacrifice things a bit. This does not address any point I’ve made in this thread. Lower taxes meaning that hard work pays off better does not mean that I personally think taxes should be lower or higher. If you lay out my personal spending priorities, which probably do not match the sentiments of my fellow citizens, and matched them with my tax priorities, my taxes would probably go up. That means my hard work would pay off less. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306/56 "2016-02-09T12:51:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So what do you consider “welfare” and what is the difference? Let’s just rip off wikipedia: > [@](#): > > In the United States, depending on the context, the term “welfare” can be used to refer to means-tested cash benefits, especially the Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program and its successor, the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Block Grant, or it can be used to refer to all means-tested programs that help individuals or families meet basic needs, including, for example, health care through Medicaid, Supplemental Security Income (SSI) benefits and food and nutrition programs (SNAP). Social Insurance programs such as Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, and Medicare are not generally considered “welfare.” That seems spot-on to me. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The consensus is clear that compared to Europe, America’s socioeconomic mobility is lower: [http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/). Newer methodology gives a different answer. And it matches reality; a traditional intergenerational coefficient of ~0.25 for Sweden would wipe out any ancestral influence by S3. Yet elite and poor families persist. And with a larger dataset (including the entirety of Swedish tax records) and longer timeline, he sees coefficients 0.7-0.8. That’s both before and after Swedish democracy ~100 years back. Now that’s Sweden, not Norway, but it’s the only country in the region he tested. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And how of that difference in median prosperity is due to geographic considerations such as Americans being more likely to own a better house due to there being more land in the United States? Of course pure income measures aren’t everything in determining quality of life, assuming one has at least a reasonable lower middle-class standard of living, getting a few weeks of vacation might be far better then having an extra 10 grand. Other than vacation time, these objections are not applicable to my upthread post and linked cite. I recommend giving them another go. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes, because very bad governments can be reflective of public opinion-for example Jim Crow undoubtedly had overwhelming white public support yet it doesn’t make those policies “good”. Who gets to decide whether union influence is “good”. Americans don’t want more of it. You and I agree on Jim Crow. We disagree on union influence. So as I’ve asked over and over again, what makes a government better than another one? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Just google private sector unionization rates over time. That doesn’t answer the question. The interesting word is “exposure.” I’ve never been in a union, but I had to deal with their shady behavior on two jobs. Thus I was exposed to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-norways-government-better-than-u-s/745306.md?page=2)