# Is Obama a Fascist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180 "2012-11-16T12:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Casanunda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a5b964/32.png) [@Casanunda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casanunda)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/1 "2012-11-16T12:46:53Z")
Just got this email from a good pen-pal friend. Politics has rarely entered our sphere of conversation, so I was surprised at both the depth and serious tone (we tend to be jackasses together) of his letter. Here’s what he wrote: > [@](#): > > Dear Mr. Socialist, > > Obama isn’t a socialist. Economically speaking it’s far more accurate to say that he is a fascist – a supporter of dirigisme, in which government manages the economy through central planning, not collective ownership. Fascism did not seek to stamp out the innovative, wealth-creating potential of profit-seeking investment and entrepreneurship - instead it sought to channel those > innovations (and funnel that wealth) to the good of the state. > > “In fascist Italy the state pays for the blunders of private enterprise,” Italian social critic Gaetano Salvemini wrote in the mid-1930s. > > When business was good, “profit remained to private initiative.” However when downturns came (as they inevitably do), “the government added the loss to the taxpayer’s burden.” > > “Profit is private and individual,” Salvemini wrote. “Loss is public and social.” > [http://spectator.org/archives/2012/06/28/barack-obama-socialist-or-nouv](http://spectator.org/archives/2012/06/28/barack-obama-socialist-or-nouv) Now, I disagree with many of my friend’s assertions, as I would go out on a limb and say it’s the wealthy fomenting class warfare, and there’s nothing new under the sun regarding most of his other claims (government mandating purchases, investments serving political purposes, etc.) Can anyone comment on the thrust of his letter? I’d like to return a thoughtful response, and unfortunately don’t have the brain power and knowledge of the collective SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/2 "2012-11-16T13:03:41Z")
Wow, your friend writes for [The American Spectator](http://spectator.org/archives/2012/06/28/barack-obama-socialist-or-nouv) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/3 "2012-11-16T13:08:48Z")
Oh Good Lord. “Obviously the fascist analogy isn’t perfect. Unlike Obama, fascists abhorred class warfare”. Yeah, this is a rational analysis. I haven’t the time to unpick everything wrong with this but ultimately the writer is starting with the assumptions he is presuming to demonstrate, using fairly dubious definitions of things like “fascism”, “socialism” and so forth and then cherrypicking selected bits out of them in support of the conclusions. It shows no understanding of basic political or economic theory while selecting random passages that various people said or wrote over the past century in a muddled morass of misunderstood arguments. By this methodology you’d have a better chance of showing that Paul Ryan is a Stalinist than of connecting Obama to fascism. Frankly the mere fact that the letter starts “Dear Mr Socialist” suggests to me that returning a “thoughtful response” will achieve nothing at all, but good luck to you. Unless your last name is actually “Socialist”, in which case never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Casanunda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a5b964/32.png) [@Casanunda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casanunda)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/4 "2012-11-16T13:20:34Z")
Simplicio – Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll have to get on him, the plagiarizing bastard! I should’ve used the Google too. :smack: Gyrate - Well no, my name isn’t ‘Mr. Socialist’, funnily enough. I’m sure he meant no harm by it, as it’s in response to my own snarky comment directed toward him (his older doggie was stealing toys from a new pup, and I mentioned socialism was back in vogue, doncha know?) Thanks for your thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/5 "2012-11-16T13:40:19Z")
Has the “In 2016 Obama will refuse to step down” lunacy started yet? I swear my Tea Party friend still believes in his heart of hearts that Hillary Clinton is biding her time plotting a coup d’etat. I’m sure if we put our minds together we can come up with a few subtle differences between the US right now and Italy in the 1930s. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/6 "2012-11-16T14:11:07Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > Has the “In 2016 Obama will refuse to step down” lunacy started yet? I swear my Tea Party friend still believes in his heart of hearts that Hillary Clinton is biding her time plotting a coup d’etat. > > I’m sure if we put our minds together we can come up with a few subtle differences between the US right now and Italy in the 1930s. Well, our trains certainly don’t run on time. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/7 "2012-11-16T14:51:25Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Well, our trains certainly don’t run on time. They didn’t in Italy either. They just waited to see when the trains actually arrived and then unskewed the timetables. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/8 "2012-11-16T15:03:06Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Well, our trains certainly don’t run on time. They give Biden _one job_… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/9 "2012-11-16T15:10:59Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > Has the “In 2016 Obama will refuse to step down” lunacy started yet? I was seeing claims of “Now Obama will have himself made President for Life” literally right after the election. > [@Gyrate](#): > > They didn’t in Italy either. They just waited to see when the trains actually arrived and then unskewed the timetables. While I get the joke, I understand that they really _didn’t_ run on time; it was just a piece of propaganda that Americans swallowed whole. Americans have a historical tendency to believe claims that ruthlessness is more efficient\*; the fascists of the time knew this and tailored their America-targeted propaganda to fit. \*A modern example; just look how many Americans just take it _as a given_ that torture is the most effective method of interrogation; even many who oppose it think doing so is a matter of putting morality above practicality. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/10 "2012-11-16T15:18:24Z")
Can he at least get the trains to run on time, then? I mean, if we’re going to be Fascist, I want the benefits!! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/11 "2012-11-16T15:22:42Z")
Obama’s detractors have shrieked “SOCIALISM!” and “SOCIALIST!” so much that the terms have begun to lose their sting; average people look at Obama’s policies and think: if \*this \*is socialism, I guess socialism isn’t all that bad. “Fascism” still has some potential as a magic spell-word, but who knows. Call Obama a “fascist” enough times and young people may wonder why fascism was once such a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/12 "2012-11-16T15:25:39Z")
Hmmm… I wonder if the American Fascists want Obama as their leader? Somehow he’s the wrong color. [http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise\_of\_american\_fascism.htm](http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/13 "2012-11-16T16:27:45Z")
> [@Casanunda](#): > > Just got this email from a good pen-pal friend. Politics has rarely entered our sphere of conversation, so I was surprised at both the depth and serious tone (we tend to be jackasses together) of his letter. Here’s what he wrote: > > \*Dear Mr. Socialist, > > Obama isn’t a socialist. Economically speaking it’s far more accurate to say that he is a fascist – a supporter of dirigisme, in which government manages the economy through central planning, not collective ownership.\* WTF? The French and Japanese governments often practice _dirigisme,_ but they’re not fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/14 "2012-11-16T16:31:08Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Hmmm… I wonder if the American Fascists want Obama as their leader? Somehow he’s the wrong color. If he was a proper fascist and running them, then he’d just declare himself to be white and shoot anyone who disagreed. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/15 "2012-11-16T16:44:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > While I get the joke, I understand that they really _didn’t_ run on time. Yes, I know. _That_ was the joke. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/16 "2012-11-16T16:55:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > WTF? The French and Japanese governments often practice _dirigisme,_ but they’re not fascist. Sure they are. They just don’t have a cadre of the disloyal resist-their-policies-at-all-costs opposition out on a mission to find a historically distasteful name to call them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/17 "2012-11-16T16:56:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, I know. _That_ was the joke. Sorry. I run into a fair number of people who think they did. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/18 "2012-11-16T17:45:17Z")
> [@Casanunda](#): > > Just got this email from a good pen-pal friend. Politics has rarely entered our sphere of conversation, so I was surprised at both the depth and serious tone (we tend to be jackasses together) of his letter. Here’s what he wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Dear Mr. Socialist, > > > > Obama isn’t a socialist. Economically speaking it’s far more accurate to say that he is a fascist – a supporter of dirigisme, in which government manages the economy through central planning, not collective ownership. Fascism did not seek to stamp out the innovative, wealth-creating potential of profit-seeking investment and entrepreneurship - instead it sought to channel those > > innovations (and funnel that wealth) to the good of the state. > > > > “In fascist Italy the state pays for the blunders of private enterprise,” Italian social critic Gaetano Salvemini wrote in the mid-1930s. > > > > When business was good, “profit remained to private initiative.” However when downturns came (as they inevitably do), “the government added the loss to the taxpayer’s burden.” > > > > “Profit is private and individual,” Salvemini wrote. “Loss is public and social.” > > [http://spectator.org/archives/2012/0...ialist-or-nouvar](http://spectator.org/archives/2012/0...ialist-or-nouvar) > > Now, I disagree with many of my friend’s assertions, as I would go out on a limb and say it’s the wealthy fomenting class warfare, and there’s nothing new under the sun regarding most of his other claims (government mandating purchases, investments serving political purposes, etc.) > > Can anyone comment on the thrust of his letter? I’d like to return a thoughtful response, and unfortunately don’t have the brain power and knowledge of the collective SDMB. Your friend is a fucking moron. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/19 "2012-11-16T18:16:01Z")
You should slap your friend ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180/20 "2012-11-16T18:50:11Z")
Tell your friend that Bush was the Fascist. From the wikipedia article on the auto bailout: > [@](#): > > In September 2008, the Big Three asked for $50 billion to pay for health care expenses and avoid bankruptcy and ensuing layoffs, and Congress worked out a $25 billion loan.[84] By December, President Bush had agreed to an emergency bailout of $17.4 billion to be distributed by the next administration in January and February.[85] In early 2009, the prospect of avoiding bankruptcy by General Motors and Chrysler continued to wane as new financial information about the scale of the 2008 losses came in. Ultimately, poor management and business practices forced Chrysler and General Motors into bankruptcy. Chrysler filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on May 1, 2009 [86] followed by General Motors a month later.[87] The auto bailout was at least as much Bush’s policy as it was Obama’s. And, of course, TARP was all Bush. And it’s all been paid back, too. Or most of it anyway. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-fascist/641180.md?page=2)