# IS Obama a natural born US citizen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 15, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083 "2008-10-15T20:16:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@mspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mspace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/1 "2008-10-15T20:16:09Z")
I know it sounds absurd… but I wonder at the reluctance of main stream news investigations into long-form birth records… Independent – Vote? – None of the above. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/2 "2008-10-15T20:18:31Z")
[Snopes.com](http://Snopes.com) has a scan of his birth certificate from Hawaii. He was born in the early 60’s when Hawaii was already a State. (He still would have been a citizen if born before then but I wanted to take that argument off of the table anyway.) His mother was a citizen and was also born in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/3 "2008-10-15T20:20:42Z")
> [@mspace](#): > > I know it sounds absurd… but I wonder at the reluctance of main stream news investigations into long-form birth records… > > Independent – Vote? – None of the above. Not sure what the body of your post means. It seems mostly gibberish. But to answer the question in the title – [Is Barack Obama a Natural-Born Citizen of the U.S.? | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp) ---
**Author:** ![mspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@mspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mspace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/4 "2008-10-15T20:25:01Z")
Correct – Snopes has a photo of a certificate of live birth… What I’m referring to would be an official long form birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/5 "2008-10-15T20:32:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Not sure what the body of your post means. It seems mostly gibberish. But to answer the question in the title – [Is Barack Obama a Natural-Born Citizen of the U.S.? | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp) The birth certificate Snopes linked to says his mother’s first name was Stanley! Not that I doubt its veracity – it’s just a pretty weird name for a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/6 "2008-10-15T20:33:44Z")
I’m an American. I have never ever heard of a long-form birth record. What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/7 "2008-10-15T20:36:37Z")
> [@mspace](#): > > Correct – Snopes has a photo of a certificate of live birth… > > What I’m referring to would be an official long form birth certificate. Oh my god, stop the goddam presses! He’s not an American! Of course, it all makes perfect sense, his “people” had no qualms about forging a “certificate of live birth,” but they drew the line at forging a “long form birth certificate.” Because that would just be wrong, ya know? And these forgers had brilliant foresight too, they actually placed a notice of Barack’s birth in the Honolulu paper back in 1961! They must be psychic, knowing all the way back then that they should put a fake birth announcement in the paper. Of course, McCain was not born in the US either, but oddly you seem to have missed that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/8 "2008-10-15T20:40:01Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I’m an American. I have never ever heard of a long-form birth record. What are you talking about? Nor I. And I’ve had recent reason to get my full scale birth certificate from Cook County. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/9 "2008-10-15T20:41:02Z")
The long form is the one with your parents’ address(es) and shit like that that was filled out when you were born and you can get a notarized xerox of it if your jurisdiction still does that. The short form is what Snopes shows, which everybody except some oddballs thinks of when you say “birth certificate.” They are both equivalent legal documents and those same oddballs are drawing a false distinction between them for their own purposes. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/10 "2008-10-15T20:41:18Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I’m an American. I have never ever heard of a long-form birth record. What are you talking about? Dittoed and seconded. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/11 "2008-10-15T20:44:09Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > The birth certificate Snopes linked to says his mother’s first name was Stanley! > > Not that I doubt its veracity – it’s just a pretty weird name for a girl. My favorite math teacher in high school was a wonderful lady named Clyde. Top that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/12 "2008-10-15T20:44:46Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I’m an American. I have never ever heard of a long-form birth record. What are you talking about? I looked it up on Wikipedia. He’s talking about the form that was presumably filled in by hand at the hospital and signed by the parties involved, including the doctor attending the birth. What Snopes has is a document from the state health department certifying that such an original document exists and contains the listed information. PLEASE NOTE: _both_ the long and short forms are normally titled Certificate of Live Birth. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/13 "2008-10-15T20:44:53Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The long form is the one with your parents’ address(es) and shit like that that was filled out when you were born and you can get a notarized xerox of it if your jurisdiction still does that. The short form is what Snopes shows, which everybody except some oddballs thinks of when you say “birth certificate.” They are both equivalent legal documents and those same oddballs are drawing a false distinction between them for their own purposes. I’m pretty sure only a minority of states even issue short form certificates. When I had to get my New York one replaced, they sent a full page, fancily-embossed copy with all the mundane details on it. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/14 "2008-10-15T20:45:27Z")
> [@mspace](#): > > Correct – Snopes has a photo of a certificate of live birth… > > What I’m referring to would be an official long form birth certificate. You guys sure like the term “official”… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/15 "2008-10-15T20:47:05Z")
> [@mspace](#): > > Correct – Snopes has a photo of a certificate of live birth… > > What I’m referring to would be an official long form birth certificate. They are BOTH entitled “Certificate of Live Birth.” That is what a BIRTH CERTIFICATE is. :rolleyes: One requires a clerk to dig through a bunch of files or microfiches to find. The other one is computerized and can be accessed and printed out faster than it takes to find the office’s notary to stamp it, especially if she’s at lunch. Legally, they are the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/16 "2008-10-15T20:47:16Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’m pretty sure only a minority of states even issue short form certificates. NC is one of them. Ive never seen or heard of a long form certificate. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/17 "2008-10-15T20:51:12Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I’m an American. I have never ever heard of a long-form birth record. What are you talking about? The long form is for uncircumcised males because they didn’t take the standard deduction when they were born. **duckflee** ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/18 "2008-10-15T20:53:08Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > NC is one of them. Ive never seen or heard of a long form certificate. Lots of other countries use them, and the long form is required for U.S. immigration purposes such as a green card application, because in that situation often it’s quite relevant to know who BOTH of a person’s parents are. Oddl enough, I have the “genealogical version” of my grandmother’s Manitoba birth certificate, which is a copy of the actual hand-filled microfilm, crossed-out scribblings and all. It specifically states that it is only valid for genealogical purposes. [Here’s further detail on short form vs. long form Canadian birth certificates, just as an example (scroll down):](http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/reciprocity/reciprocity_3531.html) "Birth, Marriage, and Death Certificates Births, marrriages, and deaths are registered in the Canadian provinces or territory in which they took place. Though each province or territory issues its own certificates for these events, there are a few basic formats for them across Canada: The “small” or “short form” certificate is a computer-printed, limited extract of information from provincial records. It is a wallet-sized card, 9.5 x 6.4 cm or 2.5 x 3.75in (Speciman from British Columbia). Short-form or small certificates are not acceptable for visa purposes because they do not contain enough identification information, such as parents’ names. The “large” or “full-size” certificate is a computer-printed extract of information from provincial records. It is printed on currency-style paper stock, 21.6 x 17.8 cm or 7 x 8.25 in., with an intaglio border (Speciman from British Columbia). A “certified copy of a record” is an exact or near-exact copy of the actual paper record in the provincial archives. It is printed on safety paper, usually 21.5 x 28 cm or 8.5 x 14in., and bears the province or territory’s raised seal. This type of certificate, being a complete record rather than an extract, contains the most information about the event. A “commemorative” certificate is a decorative document intended for display (Speciman from Manitoba). Commemorative certificates are not considered legal documents in Canada and are not acceptable for visa purposes. " ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/19 "2008-10-15T20:54:40Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > The birth certificate Snopes linked to says his mother’s first name was Stanley! > > Not that I doubt its veracity – it’s just a pretty weird name for a girl. According to the Wikipedia article on [Ann Dunham](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham) (full name Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro), she was named after her father, who wanted a son. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083/20 "2008-10-15T20:55:56Z")
Whew. The Obama candidacy is saved by the Straight Dope Message Board! 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-a-natural-born-us-citizen/468083.md?page=2)