# Is Obama African-American? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606 "2010-07-13T23:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/61 "2010-07-15T14:12:57Z")
I seem to remember George Carlin had a routine about this, and he wondered whether a racist white South African who immigrated to the U.S. and got U.S. citizenship could call themselves African American. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/62 "2010-07-15T14:30:11Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I do not quite understand your argument here. You’re saying that on average AA’s have a “lot” less money than WW (Whithey Whites), but it is NOT some kind of dividing line? I’m saying that African-Americans have a lot less money on average but even those who _don’t_ have less money are still African-American. Just to define “a lot,” the census bureau says median income for white families was $64,427 in 2007 and $40,143 for black families, meaning the median income for all-white families was 60 percent greater. [Here’s my cite (it’s a PDF).](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0681.pdf) > [@](#): > > And that is much more interesting. A goodly number of people would agree with you about that. But it doesn’t mean Obama isn’t an African-American. > [@Shodan](#): > > Most of this stuff about “he is whatever he self-identifies as” is a little difficult to swallow - if he said he was white (to which he has just as good a claim as being black) he would get a lot of flack about self-hatred and Uncle Tom-ism and so forth. If he were not a liberal Democrat, that is. Can you think of an example to support this? Maybe a conservative with a similar background who identified himself as white and got this kind of criticism? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/63 "2010-07-15T14:37:57Z")
Maybe more productive questions then would be: **What are the different meanings of “african american” and in what contexts do they apply?** and **Can a working class American become president?** ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/64 "2010-07-15T14:53:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Can you think of an example to support this? Maybe a conservative with a similar background who identified himself as white and got this kind of criticism? Actually, I was wrong - it isn’t necessary to be mixed-race to get called an Uncle Tom. Being a Republican is enough. [Cite](http://tntalk.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/gop-michael-steele-uncle-tom%E2%80%99s-party/), [cite](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ETR1380), [cite](http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/tom/), [cite](http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-47883-St-Louis-Conservative-Examiner~y2010m7d9-Kenneth-Gladney-Not-Black-Enough-to-Protect--Hes-an-Uncle-Tom), [cite](http://www.democracyforums.com/archive/index.php/t-11676.html), [cite](http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/j/judging-thomas.shtml) - if you need more, let me know. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/65 "2010-07-15T15:04:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obama is half white, and half black - therefore he is black by most people’s definition. Most of this stuff about “he is whatever he self-identifies as” is a little difficult to swallow - if he said he was white (to which he has just as good a claim as being black) he would get a lot of flack about self-hatred and Uncle Tom-ism and so forth. If he were not a liberal Democrat, that is. Tiger Woods gets plenty of flack for self identifying as Caublasian (or whatever he calls it), are you saying he is a well known conservative? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/66 "2010-07-15T15:10:30Z")
Does he claim to be white? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/67 "2010-07-15T16:28:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, I was wrong - it isn’t necessary to be mixed-race to get called an Uncle Tom. Being a Republican is enough. [Cite](http://tntalk.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/gop-michael-steele-uncle-tom%E2%80%99s-party/), [cite](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ETR1380), [cite](http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/tom/), [cite](http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-47883-St-Louis-Conservative-Examiner~y2010m7d9-Kenneth-Gladney-Not-Black-Enough-to-Protect--Hes-an-Uncle-Tom), [cite](http://www.democracyforums.com/archive/index.php/t-11676.html), [cite](http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/j/judging-thomas.shtml) - if you need more, let me know. No, I already know that’s true, and it’s unfortunate. I was wondering about your more specific scenario. > [@Shodan](#): > > Does he claim to be white? No. He once called himself Cablinasian because his ancestry is a mix of a lot of things including white, black, Native American and Asian. The way I remember it, early in his career he was pretty much universally referred to as “the first black golfer to [do whatever he’d just done]” and he made a point of saying he had other heritage. His mother is Thai, for one thing. The only comment I remember anybody making about it was a Dave Chappelle joke about how the more Tiger won, he more non-black ancestry he revealed. He wondered if eventually Tiger was going to join the Klan. 😉 > [@Stoneburg](#): > > **What are the different meanings of “african american” and in what contexts do they apply?** I’m not really sure there are different meanings. There are different elements and there are generalizations we can make about the background of most African-Americans. As noted a bunch of times, some of those don’t apply to Barack Obama. You may not be aware of this but these similarities and differences were hashed out _extensively_ during his candidacy. There were a large number of people who sometimes seemed obsessed with the idea that African-Americans would not see him one of their own. Based on how often the issue was discussed I think most of them were TV pundits. Some were curious, some were clueless, a few were hoping it’d sink him. At times this was a little bizarre because it felt like this group of white people was speculating endlessly about the topic without getting a lot of input from African-Americans. > [@](#): > > **Can a working class American become president?** Regardless of race or gender, an American who does not have access to connections and money is not going to become president. They don’t need to be personally rich, at least at the beginning, and they probably don’t need to go to the most famous schools, but that’s one way to make those connections. I don’t think that’s disputable. Someone from a working class _background_ who achieves those things could become president. Bill Clinton did not grow up rich, although I don’t think his family was ever really poor. He wound up attending a series of very prestigious schools and made his way into politics. I don’t think the Dunhams were rich at all. As you noted, Obama’s grandmother worked in a bank and his grandfather was a furniture salesman (he was not that successful, to hear Obama tell it). White collar jobs, I guess, but not exactly wealthy and privileged. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/68 "2010-07-15T16:29:52Z")
Can anyone provide a cite for Obama actually saying, “I am black,” or “I am African-American.” In his first book, he talks a lot about his struggle with racial self-identity and talks about ultimately being drawn to and feeling most comfortable in the black community, but I don’t recall him ever explicitly self-identifying as anything other than biracial, even though he acknowledges that the default _perception_ is that he is black, and that perception is, to a large degree, a practical reality in his life. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/69 "2010-07-15T16:43:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can anyone provide a cite for Obama actually saying, “I am black,” or “I am African-American.” I know it’s what he put on his census form, but the census doesn’t have multiracial categories. I don’t know of any specific statements from him about it. [I did find this quote:](http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-02-19/news/17232968_1_african-americans-black-mayors-black-candidate) > [@](#): > > [On 60 Minutes, Steve Kroft] asked Obama if he “decided” to be black. > > “I’m not sure I decided it,” said Obama, 45. "If you look African American in this society, you’re treated as an African American. I am rooted in the African American community, but I am not defined by it. > > “I am comfortable in my racial identity, but that is not all I am.” And yes, Obama writes about having wrestled with these questions extensively when he was younger, so there’s a record of it for people who are interested. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/70 "2010-07-15T16:56:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The only comment I remember anybody making about it was a Dave Chappelle joke about how the more Tiger won, he more non-black ancestry he revealed. He wondered if eventually Tiger was going to join the Klan. 😉 Somewhat reminiscent of something [Larry Holmes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Holmes) once said - “I remember when I was black. That was back when I was poor.” You are probably right about Tiger Woods - there has been some flack about him being multi-racial rather than black ([cite](http://www.mediatakeout.com/users/atlmycity1/88133/man_fuck_uncle_tom_azz_tiger_woods_he_aint_black_remember_thats_what_he_said), [cite](http://blog.mlive.com/kalamazoo_gazette_extra/2008/02/identities_shifting_in_multiracial_america.html)) but crackpots are going to do that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/71 "2010-07-15T16:57:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can anyone provide a cite for Obama actually saying, “I am black,” or “I am African-American.” Assuming one of the links that \*\*ywtf \*\*gave us on page one of this thread goes to the 5+page GQ thread we did on this subject a few years ago, I linked to a NYT article in which he said he considers himself African-American. Of course, that was after he got into politics. Still, we can’t know his actual motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/72 "2010-07-15T17:07:43Z")
The kind of quote provided by **Marley** is what I usually see from him. If you look at it closely, he’s saying that society categorizes him as African-American by default because of how he looks, that he accepts that categorization as a practical reality, and that he is comfortable in that community, but there’s no explicit declaration that “I am African-American.” His comments are always quite nuanced on the subject, and my impression is that he still doesn’t know what the most precise answer or identification would be. He definitely never makes any attempt to conceal, deny or minimize his white ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/73 "2010-07-15T20:43:58Z")
[QUOTE=Stoneburg] So your opinion is only relevant if you vote in the Us? [/QUOTE] In this particular case and based on what I was actually replying too, no, your opinion on this subject does NOT matter. You aren’t an American, and you didn’t vote in the election. Try scrolling back up and looking at what I was replying to there. Here…let me help you: [QUOTE=Stoneburg] To me it hasn’t been proven that an AA can be elected president. The last election is a positive indication (since no longer are all US presidents white) but not proof. [/QUOTE] See…your assertion was about the US election. What has or hasn’t been proven to you matters not a wit. What matters is the opinions of those who actually voted for the man. And I’ve yet to see any convincing evidence in this thread that most Americans, be they black, white or orange don’t think of Obama as ‘black’ or ‘African American’. Do you get it NOW? Or do we need to go around and around on this some more before it sinks in? > [@](#): > > Do you have to be a registered voter to be relevant in discussions with you, or just have the legal ability? You simply need to be able to actually follow a thread of conversation and recall what you are asking or asserting. Failing that, you need to be able to scroll up. Think you can handle that? > [@](#): > > Either way, if you don’t think my opinion is relevant may I suggest that you just don’t talk to me rather than first point it out and then talk to me. Your opinion about not being convinced about the subject I was actually replying to is as irrelevant as a person with zero knowledge or experience about architecture being unconvinced about the ‘official’ reasons for the WTC building collapses. > [@](#): > > It has everything to do with it from my perspectivel. Well, there you go then. Thanks for the detailed explanation about why class matters in this discussion. > [@](#): > > I will need a cite to believe this. Since it’s been provided I won’t bother. I find it amusing that you apparently DO still think that most blacks in the US are kept picking cotton on the fields, though. Perhaps that’s why you feel class is so important to this question. As if, once someone reaches a certain socio-economic ‘class’ they can or would no longer be considered ‘black’ or ‘African American’, even by themselves. Here’s the dirty little secret…the US isn’t really about class in the way you Euro’s are fixated on it. Our bugaboo is ‘race’ here…and ‘race’ is all about what one looks like (and, to a lesser degree, how one talks). > [@](#): > > What is this? First my opinion is irrelevant and then you want my opinion on everything? Do you know, by chance, what the term ‘rhetorical question’ is? -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/74 "2010-07-15T23:03:10Z")
Here’s the NYT article on this subject I referenced above, and here’s the quote from Obama. [‘African-American’ Becomes a Term for Debate](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/national/29african.html?ex=1251432000&en=0bcaf902834f7e0e&38;ei=5090&38;partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=2) > [@](#): > > “We’ve suffered so much that we’re a bit weary and immigration seems like one more hurdle we will have to climb,” said Dr. Austin, 59, who traces his ancestors back to slavery. "People are asking: ‘Will I have to climb over these immigrants to get to my dream? Will my children have to climb?’ > > “These are very aggressive people who are coming here,” said Dr. Austin, who is calling for a frank dialogue between native-born and foreign-born blacks. “I don’t berate immigrants for that; they have given up a lot to get here. But we’re going to be in competition with them. We have to be honest about it. That is one of the dividing lines.” > > Mr. Obama says such arguments do not reflect the views of black Americans who have joined forces over the years with Africans and people from the Caribbean to fight colonialism and poverty. He says black descendants of slaves share more similarities than differences with black immigrants and their children. He says his grandfather worked as a servant in Kenya and was described as a “house boy” by whites even when he was a middle-aged man. > > “Some of the patterns of struggle and degradation that blacks here in the United States experienced aren’t that different from the colonial experience in the Caribbean or the African continent,” Mr. Obama said in an interview. > > “For me the term African-American really does fit,” said Mr. Obama, 43. “I’m African, I trace half of my heritage to Africa directly and I’m American.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/75 "2010-07-15T23:56:01Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > I seem to remember George Carlin had a routine about this, and he wondered whether a racist white South African who immigrated to the U.S. and got U.S. citizenship could call themselves African American. Back in 2004 didn’t Theresa Heinz/Kerry (born in Mozambique of Portugese colonists and immigrated to the US as an adult) get a lot of flack for refuring to herself as “African-American” in an interview? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/76 "2010-07-16T00:06:44Z")
xtisme, I admit that I stopped reading your last post after the first two paragraphs. Because I feel we need to clear something up: Do you think I am unaware that I can not vote in the US (you’ve brought this up twice)? Why do you think this would mean my opinion didn’t matter? And most importantly because your behavior could be interpreted as extremely rude and insulting: Why is it so important for you to strike home that my opinion doesn’t matter? And as a bonus question: If my opinion doesn’t matter, why don’t you just put me on the ignore list instead of responding? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/77 "2010-07-16T00:50:41Z")
Compare this with White identity in the US. In the 19th century US (or at least 19th c. NYC), Irish immigrants and children thereof were frequently not considered fully White in the sense of being seen as peers to “old blood” White Americans or even recent immigrants from England, France or Germany. Part of this prejudice was, of course, religious in nature, but not all of it was. Nowadays, anyone who looks European is considered White here, whether or not their family came on the Mayflower or if they are an immigrant just arrived from Slovakia. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/78 "2010-07-16T02:54:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That assumes one knows that one’s family dates back to the 1800’s in the US. I don’t know what MY family was doing in the 1800’s…do you? Yeah, running some tiny backwards little Eastern European principality that you need a big historical atlas and a good magnifying glass to find. Thus, we never owned slaves. _Serfs_, however… **robert\_andrews** - yes, and you can see this in period writings, like Twain and “No Irish Need Apply!” **Stoneburg** “Can a working class American become president?”= Harry S Truman. Family had a modest farm, Harry worked his way through early life in a series of low level clerical and physically demanding jobs. He served in WWI ending as a Captain. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/79 "2010-07-16T13:49:24Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Back in 2004 didn’t Theresa Heinz/Kerry (born in Mozambique of Portugese colonists and immigrated to the US as an adult) get a lot of flack for refuring to herself as “African-American” in an interview? [Sort of](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1084513/posts). She referred to herself as an “African American” as opposed to “African-American”. New Jersey med student [Paolo Serodio](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7567291&page=1), whose background is identical to Kerry’s (born in Mozambique to Portuguese emigres) was kicked out of UMDNJ for calling himself “a white African-American”, which seems manifestly stupid, not to mention unfair. > [@DrDeth](#): > > **Stoneburg** “Can a working class American become president?”= Harry S Truman. Family had a modest farm, Harry worked his way through early life in a series of low level clerical and physically demanding jobs. He served in WWI ending as a Captain. Or, more recently, peanut farmer Jimmy Carter. Or Bill Clinton, whose biological father was a salesman and whose adoptive father ran a car dealership. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606/80 "2010-07-16T14:52:03Z")
I love not only some of the classifications, but the desire to classify. It must be important, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-african-american/546606.md?page=5)