# Is Obama playing politics with Veterans Affairs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758 "2009-03-17T15:30:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/21 "2009-03-17T21:47:47Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > At some point people need to take personal responsibility for taking stories like this and twisting them for political gain. If you do it out of stupidity, then just shut-up. If you do it out of malice then someone needs to remove your soap box. The White House should have a Public Relations bureau that’s entire purpose is to release the news about why he is doing what he is doing. Not just someone to deal with the press but right on [Whitehouse.gov](http://Whitehouse.gov) position papers every day about projects they are ready to talk about and to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/22 "2009-03-17T22:08:47Z")
From the OP’s link: > [@](#): > > The American Legion believes that the reimbursement plan would be inconsistent with the mandate that VA treat service-connected injuries and disabilities given that the United States government sends members of the armed forces into harm’s way, and not private insurance companies. This part I don’t really get. If I, a civilian, get injured, it wasn’t my private insurance company that sent me into harm’s way either. Nonetheless, it’s still the insurance company’s responsibility to pay for my treatment. Because that’s why I (and my employer) pay them premiums, right? Is this about **Sinaijon** ’s two-policies thing? Why have two separate policies for vets at all? Isn’t it a real PITA trying to decide whether some medical problem is service-related or not? What I thought was especially interesting was the list of reasons why the American Legion doesn’t want the current reimbursement plan to change: > [@](#): > > The proposed requirement for these companies to reimburse the VA would not only be unfair, says the Legion, but would have an adverse impact on service-connected disabled veterans and their families. The Legion argues that, depending on the severity of the medical conditions involved, maximum insurance coverage limits could be reached through treatment of the veteran’s condition alone. That would leave the rest of the family without health care benefits. The Legion also points out that many health insurance companies require deductibles to be paid before any benefits are covered. Additionally, the Legion is concerned that private insurance premiums would be elevated to cover service-connected disabled veterans and their families, especially if the veterans are self-employed or employed in small businesses unable to negotiate more favorable across-the-board insurance policy pricing. The American Legion also believes that some employers, especially small businesses, would be reluctant to hire veterans with service-connected disabilities due to the negative impact their employment might have on obtaining and financing company health care benefits. Let’s see, so the private insurance reimbursement wouldn’t be as good a plan because: 1. A service-related injury could use up all available benefits for the veteran **and his/her family too** ; 2. The private insurers are more likely to require deductibles; 3. The premiums might be high if the vet’s employer doesn’t have the clout to negotiate a lower price; 4. The costs of treatment would make vets less desirable as employees. In other words, for the individual, the private sector insurance coverage would be more expensive, less reliable, and potentially damaging to their job prospects. What was that again about the superior efficiency of private markets over government? And how will it be spun that pushing this plan makes Obama a “socialist”? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/23 "2009-03-17T22:20:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 1. A service-related injury could use up all available benefits for the veteran **and his/her family too** ; > > 2. The private insurers are more likely to require deductibles; > > 3. The premiums might be high if the vet’s employer doesn’t have the clout to negotiate a lower price; > > 4. The costs of treatment would make vets less desirable as employees. Most of those arguments are bunk, anyway. If the insurer gets billed for a service related injury, and passes that on to the DVA, and gets fully reimbursed for it, it should have no effect on your policy maximums,deductible, or premium because the insurer isn’t actually paying for it. The only cost to the insurer would be the paper trail. And if Obama gets his way with electronic records, the cost of that is basically zilch. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/24 "2009-03-17T23:21:54Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Most of those arguments are bunk, anyway. If the insurer gets billed for a service related injury, and passes that on to the DVA, and gets fully reimbursed for it, it should have no effect on your policy maximums,deductible, or premium because the insurer isn’t actually paying for it. The only cost to the insurer would be the paper trail. And if Obama gets his way with electronic records, the cost of that is basically zilch. I don’t think this is correct. According to the [WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/17/AR2009031702537.html?hpid=topnews), the plan does _not_ propose that the VA reimburse private insurers. Rather, the private insurer would bear the cost of the veteran’s medical care, up to whatever policy limits may exist. Thus it appears that the adverse consequences cited by the Legion sound plausible, at least as to charging veterans for the deductibles and the possible exhaustion of the family’s coverage. Whether this would affect hiring seems more attenuated. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > … > The problem with this is that the person is now covered by two policies. Which one does the hospital charge for a particular treatment? > > So Obama is proposing that everything gets sent to the private insurer. The private insurer would then settle with the DVA. But the hospital would only have to deal with a single insurer… The WaPo article makes it sound as though the care provider already only deals with one insurer – the VA – and the VA then pursues rembursement from the private insurer for non-service injuries. > [@mswas](#): > > What is going on here? Is he using the VA as a political football to push through universal healthcare? On its face, the proposal would push more health-care costs away from the government and onto the private insurance industry. Whether that’s good policy or not is certainly open to debate, but it’s hard for me to see how this is a step toward universal health care. It looks more like simply a cost-saving measure for the government. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/25 "2009-03-17T23:37:47Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The White House should have a Public Relations bureau that’s entire purpose is to release the news about why he is doing what he is doing. Not just someone to deal with the press but right on [Whitehouse.gov](http://Whitehouse.gov) position papers every day about projects they are ready to talk about and to explain. Bush used to cut out the middle man and just create fake news stories that were played without attribution. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/26 "2009-03-18T07:21:46Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > He’s not actually charging the veterans for treatment. > > He’s just consolidating the paperwork trail. Currently, treatment for military injuries are payed for by the DVA. Other health problems (not related to military) aren’t covered. The veteran would require private insurance for this. > > The problem with this is that the person is now covered by two policies. Which one does the hospital charge for a particular treatment? > > So Obama is proposing that everything gets sent to the private insurer. The private insurer would then settle with the DVA. But the hospital would only have to deal with a single insurer. It would have zero effect on the benefits from the veteran’s point of view. Why do this with vetrans and not Medicare? Medicare has the same problems of billing the patient’s insurance and medicare both. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/27 "2009-03-18T07:53:24Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Bush used to cut out the middle man and just create fake news stories that were played without attribution. You mean like flying a $65,000/hr limosine to Ohio to announce the trillion dollar stimulus package that nobody read was a success because 25 people will keep a job for a year? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/28 "2009-03-18T08:45:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean like flying a $65,000/hr limosine to Ohio to announce the trillion dollar stimulus package that nobody read was a success because 25 people will keep a job for a year? I don’t think you and **DanBlather** mean the same thing by “fake news story” here. You seem to be referring to something that Obama actually did that generated news coverage (however little it may have been genuinely newsworthy), and which was actually reported by journalists employed by news outlets. What **Dan** was referring to was the so-called [“VNRs”](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151871,00.html), or Video News Releases, pieces of footage that were produced and paid for by the Bush Administration itself, and designed to blend in with genuine television news segments. VNRs are also produced by private corporations as a sort of adformation (advertainment?) product, and since media outlet budgets have been very tight for some years, they’ve come to rely heavily on VNRs from companies and government agencies: > [@](#): > > VNRs incorporate video footage and hired “reporters” who conduct realistic interviews and narration into complete segments distributed to news agencies. The hired reporters in the segments do not always introduce themselves as representing a government agency and the release plays through as a typical news story, fitting seamlessly into a television broadcast with little need for editing. […] But real problems occur when stations do not identify the source of the material when it airs, giving the impression that the work is theirs, said Bob Priddy, chairman of the Radio-Television News Directors Association […] > > But in today’s competitive and resource-hungry local television news industry, VNRs are frequently thrown on the air unedited and the government knows it, say critics. And since they are fed from the parent network, which gets the segments typically through sources like Medialink or other public relations firms hired by federal agencies, sometimes the origin of the package gets lost in translation. That’s the “without attribution” part. The worrisome thing about the VNRs is not so much that they’re running what are essentially ads for free, but that a lot of time and money is being spent to ensure that viewers won’t know what’s an ad and what’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/29 "2009-03-18T08:51:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean like flying a $65,000/hr limosine to Ohio to announce the trillion dollar stimulus package that nobody read was a success because 25 people will keep a job for a year? As an aside, I wanted to mention that the “nobody read it” meme seems pretty fucking stupid to me. They edited and revised it. You don’t have to read a 1200 page book again if the editor strikes the chapter about how the giant spider and turtle were actually friends once. Ya dig? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/30 "2009-03-18T12:03:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Obama is wrong on this one. My bet: he will be told he is wrong, he will listen, and he will change his mind. [Veterans groups](http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/1092512.html) are meeting with the White House again on Thursday. I’m willing to guess that that’ll be the point where the plan gets dropped. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/31 "2009-03-18T17:21:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The headline sounds asinine, but it’s clear from the first few sentences of the article that the headline is just plain wrong. I don’t think a president should have to consider all of the ways a headline can lie about a policy before putting it into place, because for any policy, you can construct a headline that makes it look monstrous, especially if you’re criticising something the policy doesn’t actually do. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/32 "2009-03-18T17:36:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > As an aside, I wanted to mention that the “nobody read it” meme seems pretty fucking stupid to me. > > They edited and revised it. You don’t have to read a 1200 page book again if the editor strikes the chapter about how the giant spider and turtle were actually friends once. Ya dig? So you’ve answered the question of the ages: can Congress make a bill so big, nobody can [del]lift[/del] read it? That’s pretty lame saying the bills too big, therefore they shouldn’t be expected to read it. Everything in that bill could be summarized in data form for easy dissemination. Good Lord, I’ve had to break down customer data that was millions of lines deep for analysis. I can’t imagine handing in a project to my boss with the understanding that it wasn’t based on proper review. This was a 900 BILLION DOLLAR bill. If there was ever a reason to understand what was in it that is it. We’re seeing the results of this already with the legislation that allowed the AIG bonuses. They just now noticed it because NOBODY READ THE BILL. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/33 "2009-03-18T18:02:09Z")
> [@](#): > > First Amendment a Sham, Says Chronos Not at all. I 100% support the right of any media outlet to lie or mislead (though I would of course prefer that they didn’t). I was just saying that elected officials should not allow misleading media to unduly influence them. **Magiver** , the AIG bonuses weren’t part of the bailout bill, so I don’t see your argument that they went unnoticed because the bill went unread. The bonuses went unnoticed by Congress because members of Congress were not reading the employment contracts of every single company they were bailing out. Should they have? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/34 "2009-03-18T18:03:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It looks more like simply a cost-saving measure for the government. I agree that that’s the intent, but the question comes at whose expense. The insurers aren’t going to just eat $540 million, they’re gonna pass it on. Best-case scenario, everyone’s premiums go up a bit. Worst-case scenario, being in the military is identified as a risk factor and military families have to pay more – probably lots more – in premiums. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/35 "2009-03-18T18:04:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So you’ve answered the question of the ages: can Congress make a bill so big, nobody can [del]lift[/del] read it? > > That’s pretty lame saying the bills too big, therefore they shouldn’t be expected to read it. Everything in that bill could be summarized in data form for easy dissemination. Good Lord, I’ve had to break down customer data that was millions of lines deep for analysis. I can’t imagine handing in a project to my boss with the understanding that it wasn’t based on proper review. This was a 900 BILLION DOLLAR bill. If there was ever a reason to understand what was in it that is it. > > We’re seeing the results of this already with the legislation that allowed the AIG bonuses. They just now noticed it because NOBODY READ THE BILL. You are not understanding what I meant. The bill was introduced on Jan 29. They were making revisions. The final revisions were small changes. If someone read the bill before the final changes and read the final changes they’ve read the bill. What makes you think the congress persons didn’t have accurate summations of the bill? I know the republicans read it, because they were bitching and mewling about everything they could paint as wasteful. “A train from Disneyland to Vegas” for example. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/36 "2009-03-18T18:40:20Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I agree that that’s the intent, but the question comes at whose expense. The insurers aren’t going to just eat $540 million, they’re gonna pass it on. Best-case scenario, everyone’s premiums go up a bit. Worst-case scenario, being in the military is identified as a risk factor and military families have to pay more – probably lots more – in premiums. Well in the absence of National Health Care (which I support), shouldn’t groups with a higher risk factor pay more? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/37 "2009-03-18T19:06:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I 100% support the right of any media outlet to lie or mislead Yes, I’m enjoying myself. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/38 "2009-03-18T19:16:23Z")
Oh. Now I see what you did there… I guess I got whooshed the first time. Well played, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/39 "2009-03-18T22:14:22Z")
On the way home, the radio program I was listening to (Roe Conn, AM-890 Chicago for those keeping score) had the Commander of the American Legion on. He said that he & 11 other representatives from veterans organizations met with Rahm Emmanuel today and the end result was that the plan is off the table. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758/40 "2009-03-18T22:35:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are not understanding what I meant. The bill was introduced on Jan 29. They were making revisions. The final revisions were small changes. If someone read the bill before the final changes and read the final changes they’ve read the bill. > > What makes you think the congress persons didn’t have accurate summations of the bill? I know the republicans read it, because they were bitching and mewling about everything they could paint as wasteful. “A train from Disneyland to Vegas” for example. The only person who admitted to reading the first draft was Senator Voinovich. Nobody admitted to reading the final. Obviously the bonus clause was overlooked. I don’t understand how Congress can debate a 1200 page $1 trillion bill without producing a queriable database for all to see. It’s child’s play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-playing-politics-with-veterans-affairs/489758.md?page=3)