# Is Obama really the best gun salesman in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641 "2013-12-06T04:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/181 "2013-12-09T20:31:53Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > . . . You know what they say about the definition of insanity… It keeps thinking that if it buys one more gun, it will feel safe? Hypothetically. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/182 "2013-12-09T20:46:28Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I’m aware that there are gun owners who aren’t drawn by the power of guns, since I’m one of them, but I don’t pretend that those who _are_ seduced by it are rare. They’re in the news every week. There’s a whole sub-culture big enough to support its own genre of bad-ass movies and video games. Chuck Norris movie posters promise an orgy of deadly power by posing him with a gun, and millions of movie-goers willing to pay to see it have made Norris and his fellow bad-asses millionaires. The threat of using guns for the raw power they offer is great enough that their regulation to protect public safety is one of the hallmarks of modern civilization. > > So no, the number of people who get a sense of power from guns isn’t small. Well, there’s a lot of air between “universal” and “rare”. Do you have evidence that gun owners, let alone a specific sub-culture thereof, disproportionately consume violent films and video games? Unless you’re using a very expansive, indeed reductive, definition of “feeling of power” (i.e., people own multiple firearms because they are firearms), the above post doesn’t particularly defend your thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/183 "2013-12-09T21:27:16Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You keep missing out the intermediate step where the NRA gins up hysteria about the government “coming for your guns” whether the Democrats (who, incidentally, belong to the Democrat **ic** Party) mention them or not. And of course they also mention that you - YOU, freedom enthusiasts! - need to donate to the NRA _right now_ to fight the evil government gun grabbers. And people do, in vast quantities. > > Suckers. No intermediate step necessary after Newtown. In fact the NRA probably hurt itself with the LaPierre speech in the immediate aftermath of Newtown calling for armed teachers and shit like that. The NRA was verging on irrelevance until the gun grabbers felt they had finally gotten the break they had been looking for. And every special interest group tries to raise money any time that interest is threatened. I recall getting a lot of emails to donate money to “flip the house” during the government shutdown, heck I still get them. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Terry McAuliffe won a statewide race in Virginia despite taking pro gun control positions, including having endorsed the AWB. Thats not exactly the whole story now is it? He was ahead by double digits before he started talking about gun control. And he ended up winning by a slim margin. McAulliffe had been mumbling his way through any questions about guns by saying the he owned guns (which everyone knew because someone had provided the papers with a picture of him leaving a gun store with a shotgun), he believed in the second amendment and he supported background checks at gun shows. He didn’t get brave about guns until the last debate when he had a double digit lead. Then that lead shrank to a 2% victory over one of the worst candidates you can imagine. > [@](#): > > Remember when support for gay rights was going to perpetually be a wedge issue that Democrats should run from? Things change when people articulate a clear and strong position. Perpetually? No I don’t remember that. Do you have a cite? But if it makes you feel better, then by all means go ahead and ostracize a third of the country for no tangible benfits. I think the fight was over when they decided Heller. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/184 "2013-12-09T21:52:03Z")
Remember, everyone, that despite being in accord with majority popular opinion in polling results on gun issues, and despite no evidence whatsoever to support the belief, support for gun control is so toxic that Democrats are assured to lose should they advocate for it. When they do, they are really stupid. Of course, when they do and they still win in a moderately conservative state, it is only because they mumbled tepid support. I know it is confusing and nonsensical, but it is the fact! ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/185 "2013-12-10T02:00:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > 1. Well then, that doesn’t correlate with Obama’s gun sales then does it? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/186 "2013-12-10T02:11:17Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I also noticed that every recent attempt to ban assault-type weapons has died before it got off the ground, so there isn’t much chance of it happening. The fear that gun enthusiasts have of certain guns being denied them seems to be unfounded. They were banned before weren’t they? Of course that only increased demand. > [@](#): > > If you don’t mind my asking, have you bought any guns because you thought they might be banned? I bought a .338 Lapua figuring someone might think it shoots too far to be safe, but I wanted it anyway. I have more high cap magazines than I would if I knew I could always get them cheap as needed. Mostly I “hoard” reloading components. Mostly I buy in bulk when I find good deals. > [@](#): > > In that case, I challenge you to a duel. Me and my gun against you and your golf club. Do you have only one gun? If you don’t mind my asking, what kind is it? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/187 "2013-12-10T02:15:30Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It keeps thinking that if it buys one more gun, it will feel safe? Hypothetically. I don’t need any more guns to feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/188 "2013-12-10T06:11:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Remember, everyone, that despite being in accord with majority popular opinion in polling results on gun issues, and despite no evidence whatsoever to support the belief, support for gun control is so toxic that Democrats are assured to lose should they advocate for it. When they do, they are really stupid. Of course, when they do and they still win in a moderately conservative state, it is only because they mumbled tepid support. > > I know it is confusing and nonsensical, but it is the fact! Virginia voted for Obama twice, I’m not sure it really falls far enough on the conservative side to qualify as a moderately conservative state. Can you find me one quote of McAulliffe affirming his position on the assault weapons ban after say March when the AWB started to become toxic and before the Virginia Tech Debate when he was ahead by double digits. Here he is at the Fairfax debate: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/l9slSEoJX1M/hqdefault.jpg "McAuliffe - I Want An Assault Weapons Ban For Virginia") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9slSEoJX1M) They directly ask him about the AWB and only the AWB and his answer is mostly about background checks. He mumbles something in the beginning about not changing his stance but he deflects the question to other forms of gun control as I saw him do repeatedly when confronted with questions about the AWB. Try to find ONE video of Terry McAullife saying “I support an Assault Weapons Ban” taken after March 1 of this year and before the last debate, I’ll try to find another one where he is directly asked specifically about the AWB and he replies by talking about background checks at gun shows. If the Democrats make the AWB a big part of their platform in 2016, we will lose the white house unless the Republicans run someone like Michelle Bachman or Santorum. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/189 "2013-12-10T06:31:09Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > They were banned before weren’t they? Of course that only increased demand. I don’t think they ever will be again. Pretty soon every Tom, Dick and Harry will have one and it will not be possible to ban it any more than it is possible to ban rock music, Dungeons and Dragons, or dancing. I know guys that hunt with AR style weapons now. They like all the doodads. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/190 "2013-12-10T10:27:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, there’s a lot of air between “universal” and “rare”. > > Do you have evidence that gun owners, let alone a specific sub-culture thereof, disproportionately consume violent films and video games? > > Unless you’re using a very expansive, indeed reductive, definition of “feeling of power” (i.e., people own multiple firearms because they are firearms), the above post doesn’t particularly defend your thesis. To set the record straight, you seem to have taken my throwaway line as an implication that I think it’s universal, but that’s mistaken, as I already explained. For hard evidence, I have as much as you have for your assertion. For soft evidence, I have human nature, popular culture as a reflection of society, and the nightly news, all of which boils down to: Insecure people feel powerless; guns provide instant power over others. Therefore, insecure people with access to guns are drawn to them for the sense of power they give them. > [@Kable](#): > > They were banned before weren’t they? Of course that only increased demand. Yeah, who would have known that a subset of selfish gun owners could be so easily manipulated with outrageously juvenile appeals to patriotism. Honestly, it’s hard to believe that full-grown adults could be so gullible as to think that plunking down some cash for a gun makes them Warriors In The Battle For Freedom!!:D:D _“Buy on, my men,” says Sir Andrew Barton, “I am broke, but I am not slain; I’ll lay me down and save a while, And then I’ll rise and buy again.”_ > [@](#): > > Do you have only one gun? If you don’t mind my asking, what kind is it? It’s a Cooey bolt-action repeater, .22 calibre. In your world, that must be pretty small potatoes, but hey, anything to uphold Freedom and Liberty. It hasn’t been fired in 25 years and I wouldn’t miss it if I didn’t have it, but without it, I wouldn’t be free. If you don’t mind my asking, what kind of golf club will you be using?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/191 "2013-12-10T10:49:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No intermediate step necessary after Newtown. In fact the NRA probably hurt itself with the LaPierre speech in the immediate aftermath of Newtown calling for armed teachers and shit like that. The NRA was verging on irrelevance until the gun grabbers felt they had finally gotten the break they had been looking for. Yes, but what about _before_ Newtown? I know that you’re irrationally obsessed by the whole “the gun grabbers screwed up after Newtown” thing but the NRA were harping about Obama coming for your guns since 2008 and went into high gear ahead of the 2012 election (see the link I posted earlier). > [@](#): > > And every special interest group tries to raise money any time that interest is threatened. I recall getting a lot of emails to donate money to “flip the house” during the government shutdown, heck I still get them. Right. Do they use fear to get you to do it? Do they tell you week after week, month after month, that the government will take away your house unless you send them money and vote the way they tell you to? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/192 "2013-12-10T15:01:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t think they ever will be again. I used to tell my friends that before Obama tried to ban them again. I used to tell them that Clinton learned his lesson in doing so and thought that was the reason the democrats lost the congress. But then he tried again, like he couldn’t help himself. > [@](#): > > Pretty soon every Tom, Dick and Harry will have one and it will not be possible to ban it any more than it is possible to ban rock music, Dungeons and Dragons, or dancing. Yes, and I think that is the best possible defense against future bans. “Assault weapons” aren’t the low hanging fruit they once were, and not the easy stepping stone on the way to anti-gunners true goals a ban handguns and/or guns outright. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/193 "2013-12-10T15:19:44Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Yeah, who would have known that a subset of selfish gun owners could be so easily manipulated with outrageously juvenile appeals to patriotism. Manipulated? They did the exact opposite of what Obama wanted. Seems buying more AR15s is the most patriotic thing a person can do in the fight against those who would limit our second amendment freedoms. Also good is taking a friend out to shoot it so he can see how fun it is and he can buy one of his own. > [@](#): > > It’s a Cooey bolt-action repeater, .22 calibre. In your world, that must be pretty small potatoes, but hey, anything to uphold Freedom and Liberty. It hasn’t been fired in 25 years and I wouldn’t miss it if I didn’t have it, but without it, I wouldn’t be free. OK, since you don’t shoot it, it’s only purpose must be to make you feel like a man and more power to you, and for home defense your gun is better than nothing. But anyway at least now I know what you have so I can better teach you about what an analogy is. What if your friends asked you to go skeet shooting with them? Could you use your .22? No you couldn’t. There are 2 reasons you couldn’t, the first being safety, the .22 travels too far and would not be allowed on the skeet range, the second being effectiveness, you would miss always. So if you wanted to shoot skeet with your friends you would have to purchase a shotgun (another golf club if you will). Now suppose you wanted to go deer hunting, could you use your .22? No because it’s illegal because it could not be counted on for quick and humane kills, so you would need to a centerfire rifle of sufficient caliber (another golf club if you will). Now suppose you wanted to hunt rabbits, well then your .22 would fit the need pretty well and would be a good gun for the purpose. At this point you would have a “golf bag” with 3 clubs, which is a lot better than one club. So if you like to hunt various things, and do different types of target shooting you would need different types of guns for each (like a bag of golf clubs). Do you understand now? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/194 "2013-12-10T15:48:48Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Manipulated? They did the exact opposite of what Obama wanted. He isn’t talking about Obama. > [@Kable](#): > > Do you understand now? Do you? I’m not sure it can be explained in simpler terms, but we can give it the old college try. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/195 "2013-12-10T15:56:54Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > He isn’t talking about Obama. Great, so gun buyers are doing what they want, supporting and siding with who they want. > [@](#): > > Do you? I’m not sure it can be explained in simpler terms, but we can give it the old college try. I certainly do. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/196 "2013-12-10T16:22:55Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Seems buying more AR15s is the most patriotic thing a person can do in the fight against those who would limit our second amendment freedoms. So, you’re asserting that you will shoot people who legally modify the laws regarding gun ownership? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/197 "2013-12-10T16:25:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So, you’re asserting that you will shoot people who legally modify the laws regarding gun ownership? No, he’s saying that merely **buying** the guns will suffice to fight the infringement of Second Amendment rights. Somehow, in some intangible, incoherent way. Because guns. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/198 "2013-12-10T16:49:32Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > To set the record straight, you seem to have taken my throwaway line as an implication that I think it’s universal, but that’s mistaken, as I already explained. > > For hard evidence, I have as much as you have for your assertion. For soft evidence, I have human nature, popular culture as a reflection of society, and the nightly news, all of which boils down to: Insecure people feel powerless; guns provide instant power over others. Therefore, insecure people with access to guns are drawn to them for the sense of power they give them. Is the trait of being insecure independent of region of residence, and whether one lives in an urban or rural area? > [@Gyrate](#): > > No, he’s saying that merely **buying** the guns will suffice to fight the infringement of Second Amendment rights. Somehow, in some intangible, incoherent way. > > Because guns. Makes sense, if the ARs are being bought by people who previously didn’t own one. A man buying his fifth AR wouldn’t affect anything, but someone with a cabinet full of bolt-action deer rifles who considered ARs to be the province of whackjob militia types buying one would. The more mainstream something is, the harder it is to garner support for prohibiting it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/199 "2013-12-10T16:59:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No, he’s saying that merely **buying** the guns will suffice to fight the infringement of Second Amendment rights Right, it’s hard to ban America’s rifle. > **[America's Gun: The Rise of the AR-15](https://www.cnbc.com/id/100606839)** > > It's a gun that is legal and lethal. The AR-15 is seven pounds of steel and plastic that can fire a bullet at roughly 3,000 feet-per-second. To some, the gun is a brilliant piece of engineering and a symbol of one of America’s most basic freedoms. To... ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/200 "2013-12-11T01:30:26Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Manipulated? They did the exact opposite of what Obama wanted. Exactly what he planned. In the graph in your OP, did you see how much in taxes gun owners have contributed to Obama’s agenda with their courageous shopping binge? He played you guys like a backwoods fiddle made of suckerwood. You’re now a key player in his vision of a socialist utopia. Keep up the good work, comrade. Or maybe the manipulation was by other parties. But I like your take on it. > [@Kable](#): > > Seems buying more AR15s is the most patriotic thing a person can do in the fight against those who would limit our second amendment freedoms. Spoken like a true pamphlet. > [@Kable](#): > > OK, since you don’t shoot it, it’s only purpose must be to make you feel like a man and more power to you, Cause that’s what it’s all about, isn’t it–power, and feeling like a man. > [@Kable](#): > > But anyway at least now I know what you have so I can better teach you about what an analogy is. > > What if your friends asked you to go skeet shooting with them? Could you use your .22? No you couldn’t. There are 2 reasons you couldn’t, the first being safety, the .22 travels too far and would not be allowed on the skeet range, the second being effectiveness, you would miss always. So if you wanted to shoot skeet with your friends you would have to purchase a shotgun (another golf club if you will). Now suppose you wanted to go deer hunting, could you use your .22? No because it’s illegal because it could not be counted on for quick and humane kills, so you would need to a centerfire rifle of sufficient caliber (another golf club if you will). Now suppose you wanted to hunt rabbits, well then your .22 would fit the need pretty well and would be a good gun for the purpose. At this point you would have a “golf bag” with 3 clubs, which is a lot better than one club. So if you like to hunt various things, and do different types of target shooting you would need different types of guns for each (like a bag of golf clubs). > > Do you understand now? But…why would I carry guns in a golf bag?😕 It’s all so bewildering. Perhaps explaining it in exruciating detail several more times would help. If it’ll make me think more clearly, I’ll hold my gun while you do it. Or should I hold my golf clubs? Damn, I’m so confused. Maybe it would be better if you pointed out to me the _differences_ between guns and golf clubs, and why there’s a need to regulate one and not the other. Then maybe we’ll get somewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=11)