# Is Obama really the best gun salesman in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641 "2013-12-06T04:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/221 "2014-01-02T04:16:28Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > The symmetry is meaningless Yes I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. Maybe it’s because the economy was doing so well.:dubious: > [@](#): > > and there’s not really any correlation between crime rate and gun sales, much less causality. OK so pretend you are a rapist murderer. All things being the same, are you going to attack the woman leaving the gun store or the one leaving Bed Bath and Beyond? > [@](#): > > The part of that paragraph which surprises me is: You actually think the President planned to increase the crime rate? Of course not, well at least if we ignore the Fast and Furious debacle. > [@](#): > > Please tell me how I’m parsing that sentence wrong, because my interpretation seems rather incredible. I’m almost sure Obama wanted to lesson crime, but he probably hoped to do so by taking guns off the streets, not by putting 40 million extra on the streets. But crime went down anyway, quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/222 "2014-01-02T04:44:36Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK so pretend you are a rapist murderer. All things being the same, are you going to attack the woman leaving the gun store or the one leaving Bed Bath and Beyond? Which one is more likely to be a rapist? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/223 "2014-01-02T04:53:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Yes I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. Maybe it’s because the economy was doing so well.:dubious: So, you’ve got nothing in the way of proof other than a smiley face and silliness, gotchya. > [@](#): > > I’m almost sure Obama wanted to lesson crime, but he probably hoped to do so by taking guns off the streets, not by putting 40 million extra on the streets. But crime went down anyway, quite a bit. Ok, thanks for clarifying that a bit. I figure in the end it doesn’t matter, crime went down. It probably has zilch to do with the number of guns on the street, and probably even less to do with who’s in the White House. If you’re making that claim, the onus to prove it is on you. I’ll repeat: Everything I’ve seen on the subject shows that there’s not much in the way of correlation, the two numbers don’t seem to have a relationship. If you do want to try to prove that, it’s probably best to do it in another thread, as it’s not directly related to this one. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/224 "2014-01-02T04:57:15Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Which one is more likely to be a rapist? Probably not someone leaving the gun store, else crimes would be going up wouldn’t they? Plus rapists probably don’t do so well on background checks. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/225 "2014-01-02T05:08:25Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > So, you’ve got nothing in the way of proof other than a smiley face and silliness, gotchya. And of course logic. > [@](#): > > Everything I’ve seen on the subject shows that there’s not much in the way of correlation, the two numbers don’t seem to have a relationship. You don’t see the strong negative correlation? Lots more guns being carried concealed to which probably helps with crime too. > **[File:Rtc2.gif](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rtc2.gif)** > > Rtc2.gif (676 × 509 pixels, file size: 79 KB, MIME type: image/gif, looped, 28 frames, 32 s) > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. I mean who wants to mug a guy if he’s likely packing? > [@](#): > > If you do want to try to prove that, it’s probably best to do it in another thread, as it’s not directly related to this one. You can start a new thread if you want. But this is my thread about Obamas gun sales and I think it’s worth noting some of the good things that have come from it. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/226 "2014-01-02T05:40:05Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You can start a new thread if you want. But this is my thread about Obamas gun sales and I think it’s worth noting some of the good things that have come from it. Ok, try. But you haven’t yet. It’s more complicated than your map tries to present it: [http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/](http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/227 "2014-01-02T11:37:28Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Certainly you would agree that once Obama went from a guy gun owners thought would ban guns to a guy who actually tried to ban guns, there was a considerable increase in gun sales. There was a big boost in gun sales back in 2008 too. > [@](#): > > And of course that vindicated of all those who thought he would ban guns before he tried, proving they weren’t really that paranoid. So Obama waits five years through multiple shooting sprees until someone decides to gun down a bunch of first-graders and then provides some half-hearted lip service for a weak AWB bill - _that_ vindicates the NRA’s repeated refrain of “the government is going to come knocking on your door for your guns!” since 2008? That’s a pretty thin straw to grasp, but entirely consistent with the strength of your arguments throughout this thread. It only holds water if you are, in fact, paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/228 "2014-01-02T14:39:04Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Ok, try. But you haven’t yet. It’s more complicated than your map tries to present it: It’s only more complicated when one tries to weasel their way around some pretty blatant trends. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/229 "2014-01-02T14:44:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > There was a big boost in gun sales back in 2008 too. Of course there was. > [@](#): > > So Obama waits five years through multiple shooting sprees until someone decides to gun down a bunch of first-graders and then provides some half-hearted lip service for a weak AWB bill - _that_ vindicates the NRA’s repeated refrain of “the government is going to come knocking on your door for your guns!” since 2008? I think the NRA literature said that Obama/the liberals would go after assault weapons first, which is just what they did, like they did before, which is what the NRA said they would do before. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/230 "2014-01-02T14:56:50Z")
So you’re operating on the “stopped clock” theory of vindication? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/231 "2014-01-02T15:31:03Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So you’re operating on the “stopped clock” theory of vindication? Sort of, the NRA was right twice, but from here on the dope I was able to learn that a large number of anti-gunners think exactly like the NRA used to say they think and that things like the AWB are just first steps towards their ultimate goals. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/232 "2014-01-02T16:29:02Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It’s only more complicated when one tries to weasel their way around some pretty blatant trends. Who’s weaseling? I presented you with contrary info, and you just breezed by it. Enjoy witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/233 "2014-01-02T16:56:25Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sort of, the NRA was right twice, but from here on the dope I was able to learn that a large number of anti-gunners think exactly like the NRA used to say they think and that things like the AWB are just first steps towards their ultimate goals. And from the Dope I was able to learn that a large number of pro-gunners are macho idiots who shouldn’t be allowed a stapler let alone a weapon or terrified bunnies worried that the minute they leave the house without a weapon the Scary Killer Rapist Muggers will pounce. The difference here is that you automatically extrapolate the most extreme position to be the majority position and I don’t. I know many responsible gun owners, some of which are relations, and none of them go on about how they need to be ready to defend themselves at every moment. They keep their guns safe and maintained and out of sight unless in use (or being prepared for use), and I suspect most gun owners are the same. You seem to think that any gun control proponent who doesn’t claim to want to remove all guns everywhere is lying. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/234 "2014-01-02T17:08:28Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Yes I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. Maybe it’s because the economy was doing so well.:dubious: There is [no demonstrable link](https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=743497) between economic conditions and crime, especially violent (as opposed to property) crime: > [@](#): > > Studies to date have shown mixed and often contradictory results regarding the relationship between economic adversity and changes in crime. While many assume that crime will flourish in times of economic strife, little empirical evidence has supported this notion. Research suggests that sometimes significant downturns result in an increase in crime rates, and sometimes they do not (Cook and Zarkin 1985; Chiricos and Delone 1992; Bushway, Cook, and Phillips 2010; Smith, Devine, and Shelby 1992). > [@Kable](#): > > OK so pretend you are a rapist murderer. All things being the same, are you going to attack the woman leaving the gun store or the one leaving Bed Bath and Beyond? The problem with this sort of analysis is that very few homicides are the result of a person attacking a stranger for psychosexual gratificication, so even if such people are dissuaded by concealed weapons (which is possible, of course), the effect on overall homicide rates would be low. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/235 "2014-01-02T19:41:36Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Who’s weaseling? I presented you with contrary info, and you just breezed by it. Enjoy witnessing. Your contrary info wasn’t contrary. The info was the same, it just had a contrary spin. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/236 "2014-01-02T19:48:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I know many responsible gun owners, some of which are relations, and none of them go on about how they need to be ready to defend themselves at every moment. They keep their guns safe and maintained and out of sight unless in use (or being prepared for use), and I suspect most gun owners are the same. Can I assume you think the one’s to carry concealed are not responsible? Based on that, do you think an increased in concealed carry would be associated with increased or decreased homicides? > [@](#): > > You seem to think that any gun control proponent who doesn’t claim to want to remove all guns everywhere is lying. Am I wrong? No I don’t think all of them are lying. I do think some of them are, while the rest are willing stooges for the ones that are lying, or the one’s that will tell you outright that their goals are to get rid of most/all guns. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/237 "2014-01-02T19:53:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The problem with this sort of analysis is that very few homicides are the result of a person attacking a stranger for psychosexual gratificication, so even if such people are dissuaded by concealed weapons (which is possible, of course), the effect on overall homicide rates would be low. The rape/murder was but one example so it’s effect would be relatively low. Now look at a bunch of other crimes that would be deterred if criminals thought they were more likely to get shot in the process, it might add up to a greater overall effect. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/238 "2014-01-02T20:23:10Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > The rape/murder was but one example so it’s effect would be relatively low. Now look at a bunch of other crimes that would be deterred if criminals thought they were more likely to get shot in the process, it might add up to a greater overall effect. Right? Right. I made that objection because you only referenced homicide figures, and homicides are dominated by two categories: gang and drug related killings, and murder of intimate partners, neither of which is likely to be affected by more guns in circulation. The concept of deterrence of other crimes, and even some homicides, is plausible, though proving it is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/239 "2014-01-02T21:05:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Right. I made that objection because you only referenced homicide figures, and homicides are dominated by two categories: gang and drug related killings, and murder of intimate partners, neither of which is likely to be affected by more guns in circulation. > > The concept of deterrence of other crimes, and even some homicides, is plausible, though proving it is another matter. Do you work for a tobacco company? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/240 "2014-01-02T21:07:18Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you work for a tobacco company? No, a financial institution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=13)