# Is Obama really the best gun salesman in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641 "2013-12-06T04:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/241 "2014-01-02T21:12:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, a financial institution. Close enough. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/242 "2014-01-02T23:25:39Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Your contrary info wasn’t contrary. The info was the same, it just had a contrary spin. No, the information I presented actually looked at the data in a scientific way, not in your folksy science way: [QUOTE=The fine article] Suffice to say there is academic disagreement on this issue. Crime is down dramatically right now — even in states that have not passed such laws. To prove causation, which Gohmert’s statement implies, would require that those doing the study discern what would have happened if not for the law, and that is almost impossible to model. [/QUOTE] Which pretty much sums up the hole in your argument so far. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/243 "2014-01-02T23:34:15Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > No, the information I presented actually looked at the data in a scientific way, not in your folksy science way: Keep telling yourself that. Gun sales are up huge, homicides (including gun homicides) are down huge. I’m sure the combination you liberals much to bemoan. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/244 "2014-01-03T02:34:17Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Keep telling yourself that. Gun sales are up huge, homicides (including gun homicides) are down huge. I’m sure the combination you liberals much to bemoan. Get this into your head, and get it in there quick: I am not one of “you liberals”, and I don’t support such stupid measures as the AWB. I have little time for cheerleaders on either side who can’t examine their position critically. I’m probably essentially on your side of the larger issue, but you’re wrong here. You’re just making an argument that will convince no-one who even has a passing knowledge of sociology, and you aren’t backing it up with any credible evidence, and you’re just hand-waving when presented with evidence that pretty much leaves yours in waste. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/245 "2014-01-03T03:49:20Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Get this into your head, and get it in there quick: I am not one of “you liberals”… No? What are you? > [@](#): > > …and I don’t support such stupid measures as the AWB. What measures do you support? > [@](#): > > I’m probably essentially on your side of the larger issue, but you’re wrong here. You’re just making an argument that will convince no-one who even has a passing knowledge of sociology, and you aren’t backing it up with any credible evidence, and you’re just hand-waving when presented with evidence that pretty much leaves yours in waste. Sorry I didn’t see any data that left mine in waste. I saw some signs of cherry picking data though, and if your so astute you should have seen it too? Anyway, if guns sales were on the way up 15%, and homicides were on the way up 15%, it would be a slam dunk on this board that guns are at fault. So all this “credible evidence” crap just seems to me like post-hoc rationalizations. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/246 "2014-01-03T04:06:14Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No? What are you? A reasonable human being. You’ve seen evidence otherwise? > [@](#): > > What measures do you support? I know of no pending measures that I support. If you want my position on a particular facet of the law, name it. > [@](#): > > Sorry I didn’t see any data that left mine in waste. I saw some signs of cherry picking data though, and if your so astute you should have seen it too? Anyway, if guns sales were on the way up 15%, and homicides were on the way up 15%, it would be a slam dunk on this board that guns are at fault. So all this “credible evidence” crap just seems to me like post-hoc rationalizations. So, that’s your logic? Since there are people who would see the opposite statistic as confirmation of their bias, you’re justified in doing it here? How is the part of the article I quoted cherry-picking anything? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/247 "2014-01-03T04:34:11Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > A reasonable human being. You’ve seen evidence otherwise? You sound like an apologist of some sort. What political party are you registered in? Who did you vote for in the last say 3 elections? > [@](#): > > I know of no pending measures that I support. If you want my position on a particular facet of the law, name it. What gun/ammo/carry laws would you put into place if you had the power? > [@](#): > > So, that’s your logic? Since there are people who would see the opposite statistic as confirmation of their bias, you’re justified in doing it here? If the opposite statistic were fact it would be hard to argue with. > [@](#): > > How is the part of the article I quoted cherry-picking anything? I saw cherry picking in the article just by skimming it, and thus considered the rest suspect. Sorry you missed it. I didn’t say anything in particular with regards to the quote you cherry picked from the rest. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/248 "2014-01-03T05:35:34Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You sound like an apologist of some sort. What political party are you registered in? Who did you vote for in the last say 3 elections? I’m not registered, and wouldn’t. I voted Dem each time. Do with that what thou wilt. > [@](#): > > What gun/ammo/carry laws would you put into place if you had the power? All new guns would be pink. You can make it any color you like while owning it, but it has to be returned to pink before it transfers ownership again. I fucking hate people who buy guns because they look cool. They’re awesome to use without fetishizing them for their looks. Incidentally, I’d require all new computers to be beige, for the same goddamned reason. (That’s a half joke, son. Your computer would be beige, and you would like it.) If I were really made king, I’d probably remove some of the retarded limitations on modifying rifles. It’s retarded that if I buy a mare’s leg that’s made from a bespoke action, it’s legal. But if I cut down a rifle to make the same device, it’s the pokey for me. Carbine laws are pretty dumb IMHO, too. > [@](#): > > If the opposite statistic were fact it would be hard to argue with. > I saw cherry picking in the article just by skimming it, and thus considered the rest suspect. Sorry you missed it. I didn’t say anything in particular with regards to the quote you cherry picked from the rest. If that’s all you’ve got: Bye. I’m not wasting my time any more. Enjoy your religion. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/249 "2014-01-03T05:44:56Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I’m not registered, and wouldn’t. I voted Dem each time. Do with that what thou wilt. Sounds like you lean liberal. > [@](#): > > All new guns would be pink. You can make it any color you like while owning it, but it has to be returned to pink before it transfers ownership again. I fucking hate people who buy guns because they look cool. They’re awesome to use without fetishizing them for their looks. Incidentally, I’d require all new computers to be beige, for the same goddamned reason. > (That’s a half joke, son. Your computer would be beige, and you would like it.) Which half ain’t a joke son? > [@](#): > > If I were really made king, I’d probably remove some of the retarded limitations on modifying rifles. It’s retarded that if I buy a mare’s leg that’s made from a bespoke action, it’s legal. But if I cut down a rifle to make the same device, it’s the pokey for me. > > Carbine laws are pretty dumb IMHO, too. For some reason I believe the pink part. > [@](#): > > Enjoy your religion. I’m an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/250 "2014-01-03T10:15:49Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Can I assume you think the one’s to carry concealed are not responsible? Based on that, do you think an increased in concealed carry would be associated with increased or decreased homicides? No you cannot, so your question is irrelevant. I’m talking about attitudes, the kind you’ve displayed here. > [@](#): > > No I don’t think all of them are lying. I do think some of them are, while the rest are willing stooges for the ones that are lying, or the one’s that will tell you outright that their goals are to get rid of most/all guns. Gosh, that’s so much better. So all your opponents are lying OR disingenous. No wonder you’re such a constructive debater. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/251 "2014-01-03T15:08:04Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > If the opposite statistic were fact it would be hard to argue with. Why not? You yourself made reference to something other than the gun supply that’s thought to influence crime rates: > [@Kable](#): > > Yes I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. Maybe it’s because the economy was doing so well. Crime is a very complex subject, and no single variable accounts for any given uptick or downturn. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/252 "2014-01-03T15:11:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No you cannot, so your question is irrelevant. My question is irrelevant? Boy you guys really don’t like to answer questions when you know that answer strengthens my position. I guess you all really don’t like them facts. > [@](#): > > I’m talking about attitudes, the kind you’ve displayed here. I’ve merely noted that gun control efforts only served to put millions of extra guns in circulation and made fairly unpopular “plastic” rifle the most popular in America. And I noticed that homicides went down, A LOT, anyway. > [@](#): > > Gosh, that’s so much better. So all your opponents are lying OR disingenous. No wonder you’re such a constructive debater. Of course not, the stooges are not disingenuous, they are just going willingly some number of steps in the direction that the full on gungrabbers want them to go. And guys like Boblibdem are neither. He would like to ban all guns, and he will honestly say so. However, I think there are a lot of you people who are lying or disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/253 "2014-01-03T15:18:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Why not? You yourself made reference to something other than the gun supply that’s thought to influence crime rates: Pit Bulls? It could be the Pit Bulls. > [@](#): > > Crime is a very complex subject, and no single variable accounts for any given uptick or downturn. You don’t say. It is however to me curious that as gun ownership and concealed carry goes up, violent crime keeps going down. I’m sure you are right though, it’s probably just a coincidence. I just appreciate the symmetry in the correlation. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/254 "2014-01-03T16:30:34Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > My question is irrelevant? Boy you guys really don’t like to answer questions when you know that answer strengthens my position. I guess you all really don’t like them facts. What are you, Needles from _Back to the Future_? Gonna call me “chicken” next? You made an assumption and then based a question on it, but your assumption was wrong and therefore the question was irrelevant. Are you incapable of understanding basic logic? Wait, what am I saying? Of course you are. > [@](#): > > I’ve merely noted that gun control efforts only served to put millions of extra guns in circulation and made fairly unpopular “plastic” rifle the most popular in America. In the same way that Emmanuel Goldstein made Big Brother popular, sure. More strawmen - or should I say “bogeymen” - created to gin up fear in the interest of garnering more money and political influence. Scary pictures of Obama and jackbooted government thugs pervade literature from gun advocacy organisations, whereas actual government efforts have been about as threatening as the Girl Scouts coming around to sell cookies. The fact that you can wave your hand and say “Look! They’re doing something that if you squint and pretend real hard looks vaguely like the thing we warned you would happen!” does not constitute vindication. > [@](#): > > And I noticed that homicides went down, A LOT, anyway. And you’ve failed to demonstrate the slightest bit of causation. But then Argumentum ad Anecdotum is your bread and butter. > [@](#): > > Of course not, the stooges are not disingenuous, they are just going willingly some number of steps in the direction that the full on gungrabbers want them to go. And guys like Boblibdem are neither. He would like to ban all guns, and he will honestly say so. However, I think there are a lot of you people who are lying or disingenuous. Then you’re not arguing in good faith and there’s no point in engaging with you. You can continue to pretend that I hold positions I don’t and then pretend to defeat them without my assistance; I have no desire to be a further party to your mental masturbation. Feel free to declare yourself a “winner” while you’re at it. It will have just as much validity as everything else you’ve posted, which is to say none whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/255 "2014-01-03T16:59:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You made an assumption and then based a question on it, but your assumption was wrong and therefore the question was irrelevant. OK, so regardless of my assumption, you can still answer my question can’t you? If you just don’t want to, just say so. > [@](#): > > Are you incapable of understanding basic logic? No I’m good at logic. > [@](#): > > In the same way that Emmanuel Goldstein made Big Brother popular, sure. More strawmen - or should I say “bogeymen” - created to gin up fear in the interest of garnering more money and political influence. Scary pictures of Obama and jackbooted government thugs pervade literature from gun advocacy organisations, whereas actual government efforts have been about as threatening as the Girl Scouts coming around to sell cookies. You’re not going to pretend that they didn’t try to really bring back the AWB are you? You’re not going to pretend they didn’t really ban them guns before are you? > [@](#): > > The fact that you can wave your hand and say “Look! They’re doing something that if you squint and pretend real hard looks vaguely like the thing we warned you would happen!” does not constitute vindication. It looks exactly like the NRA said it would look. > [@](#): > > And you’ve failed to demonstrate the slightest bit of causation. Hume says you can never truly demonstrate causation. > [@](#): > > Then you’re not arguing in good faith and there’s no point in engaging with you. You can continue to pretend that I hold positions I don’t and then pretend to defeat them without my assistance; I have no desire to be a further party to your mental masturbation. Right and you can continue to avoid questions that make your positions clear so you can pretend they weren’t destroyed. > [@](#): > > Feel free to declare yourself a “winner” while you’re at it. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/256 "2014-01-03T21:07:21Z")
Incidentally the facts aren’t entirely in your favor either, Kable. While it is the case that the number of guns is increasing, the [number of people who own guns have been going down.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?_r=0). Only about 1/3 of households have guns, and[20% of gun owners own 65% of the guns](http://www.thewire.com/politics/2012/12/guns-in-america-statistics/60071/). So that means about 7% or so of Americans own 65% of the guns. Your increasing gun sales don’t reflect an increasingly armed population, they instead represent a small number of people feeling the need for a massive personal arsenal. Since you can only shoot one or two guns at a time, the proportion of households with guns is the far more relevant number than the number of guns per household, in terms of determining the likelihood that a criminal will run into an armed home owner. Now that correct analysis of the statistics show that violent crime is showing the same downward trend that gun ownership is, are you now willing to follow the data correlation to causation and admit that a less well armed populations has led to less violent crime? Or are the facts suddenly irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/257 "2014-01-03T21:33:52Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Incidentally the facts aren’t entirely in your favor either, Kable. While it is the case that the number of guns is increasing, the [number of people who own guns have been going down.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?_r=0). That’s not what Gallup shows. > **[Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993](https://news.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self-Reported-Gun-Ownership-Highest-1993.aspx)** > > Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/258 "2014-01-04T00:09:23Z")
That’s drawing a pretty strong conclusion from the final 2012 data point. Even in the data you cite the trend downward between 1991 and 2011. Are you arguing that all of the data showing reduced violence and reduced gun ownership from in the 90’s is spurious but the one year 2012 is what makes the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/259 "2014-01-04T00:40:19Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > That’s drawing a pretty strong conclusion from the final 2012 data point. Even in the data you cite the trend downward between 1991 and 2011. Guns per household had been downward for a good while and that was attributed to increase urbanization and increased households where women are the heads. However that has been reversing as of late with increased laxity of concealed carry and increased women buying firearms. What I thought was particularly interesting from the Gallup poll was the increase in firearms ownership among democrats as of late. > [@](#): > > Are you arguing that all of the data showing reduced violence and reduced gun ownership from in the 90’s is spurious but the one year 2012 is what makes the difference. No I would say that has much to do with the right to carry which has been increasing steadily for years, such that a good portion of those guns you were talking about are in the street where they can do more good than they can at home in peoples guns safes. I cited this gif already just a few posts up: [File:Rtc2.gif - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rtc2.gif) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/260 "2014-01-04T01:18:22Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It is however to me curious that as gun ownership and concealed carry goes up, violent crime keeps going down. I’m sure you are right though, it’s probably just a coincidence. Maybe not. But we have to put this in the correct context. As you know from my past posts, what’s significantly changed, in the US, is the ratio of gun homicides to suicides, not the number of gun deaths. It could be that the increasing guns sales, and gun suicides, have the same underlying cause – worry and fearfulness. Worried people are probably more likely to kill themselves than others. Of course, people aren’t killing themselves for fear that Obama is going to come for their guns. But if they get upset over such nonsense, imagine how upset they may get when real life challenges appear. Just an idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=14)