# Is Obama really the best gun salesman in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641 "2013-12-06T04:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/81 "2013-12-06T19:05:51Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Sure you did. :rolleyes: If there’s been steady growth in the number of background checks for 10 straight years Not really, more like since 2006, accelerating as people thought a particularly anti-gun democrat (Obama or Hillary) might win the next Presidency. > [@](#): > > Either way - I still don’t quite know what point you’re trying to make - suppose we suddenly had clear-cut data that gun sales went from ‘zero’ in 2008 to a quadragadzillion in 2009 under Obama…what would your point even be? The point is that aggressive gun control efforts sell guns, millions of them, and it seems to preferentially be “assault” type guns. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/82 "2013-12-06T19:10:17Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > The point is that aggressive gun control efforts sell guns, millions of them, and it seems to preferentially be “assault” type guns. IMO that point is fundamentally flawed, as there have been no “aggressive gun control efforts.” ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/83 "2013-12-06T19:11:28Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I suppose it’s a bit semantics but it seems his policies has resulted in the sale of lots of firearms. Though you could credit some of that to Dianne Feinstein, Piers Morgan, Sarah Brady, etc. It does seem pretty clear that anti-gun efforts result in more gun sales. > The numbers seem pretty close to correct though, don’t they? I would say that fear of policies that haven’t even been proposed, drummed up by the NRA, have resulted in increased sales. The NRA is a very effective advocate for its advertisers. I don’t care about the numbers. I know that the Ruger and S & W sales numbers could be verified by looking up annual reports on line, but I’m not going to do it, because I don’t care. I know that a bunch of entities who have a direct interest in increased gun sales make a lot of noise every time a Democrat is elected president, and that that noise results in increased prices, shortages and increased revenue for the manufacturers. What the hell is your point? If it is that direct actions of Obama have resulted in increased sales for guns makers, then I think you are wrong. Aggressive gun control efforts? Are you kidding? When is the last time you saw a politician with the balls to aggressively try to control guns? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/84 "2013-12-06T19:12:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > The point is that aggressive gun control efforts sell guns, millions of them, and it seems to preferentially be “assault” type guns. What’s your source for the claim that guns sold since 2005-ish have been 75%, mostly, or even preferentially, assault weapons? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/85 "2013-12-06T19:17:56Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I would like to try and understand how you look at it. I’m a person who has never bought or owned a gun and have no desire to do so. I have a few questions to clarify what you said and try to understand it. > > 1. When you say a lot of guns, what sort of numbers are we talking about? Enough that I’m not sure how many. Maybe 30. > [@](#): > > 1. Why do you feel you need more than 1 or 2? (and yes, I mean you specifically. I know there are collectors and such) “Need” as in, have in order to live, no. “Need” as in I need them to do everything I want to do with them recreational I need a lot more than 2. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/86 "2013-12-06T19:19:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > IMO that point is fundamentally flawed, as there have been no “aggressive gun control efforts.” Yes there have. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/87 "2013-12-06T19:22:36Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I would say that fear of policies that haven’t even been proposed, drummed up by the NRA, have resulted in increased sales. Attempt to reintroduce the AWB wasn’t a fear policy. It’s what gun enthusiasts thought would happen. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/88 "2013-12-06T19:26:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What’s your source for the claim that guns sold since 2005-ish have been 75%, mostly, or even preferentially, assault weapons? That’s my subjective estimate based on going into a lot of gun stores in 2012 and seeing all the “assault” style weapons were sold out. Also it was hard to buy even a revolver from Smith and Wesson, because they curtailed production of non-assault weapons so they could try to better keep up with demand on M&P pistols and AR15s. If you can cite a better estimate I’m all ears. FWIW I think 75% is more likely low than high. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/89 "2013-12-06T19:26:45Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Enough that I’m not sure how many. Maybe 30. > “Need” as in, have in order to live, no. “Need” as in I need them to do everything I want to do with them recreational I need a lot more than 2. I suppose I never will understand then. I can’t even begin to imagine what anyone would need with 30. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/90 "2013-12-06T19:28:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Yes there have. Then you and I have wildly different ideas of what constitutes “aggressive gun control efforts.” And respectfully, I believe yours is based in emotion, not fact. . ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/91 "2013-12-06T19:48:34Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Attempt to reintroduce the AWB wasn’t a fear policy. It’s what gun enthusiasts thought would happen. An attempt to do the politically impossible is political theater, not aggressive gun control. Like the repeated votes to repeal Obamacare. Theater. Posturing. Surely you are familiar with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/92 "2013-12-06T19:54:14Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I suppose I never will understand then. I can’t even begin to imagine what anyone would need with 30. I didn’t say I needed 30 though did I? I buy lots of things that aren’t “needs.” Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/93 "2013-12-06T19:54:32Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s my subjective estimate based on going into a lot of gun stores in 2012 and seeing all the “assault” style weapons were sold out. Also it was hard to buy even a revolver from Smith and Wesson, because they curtailed production of non-assault weapons so they could try to better keep up with demand on M&P pistols and AR15s. If you can cite a better estimate I’m all ears. FWIW I think 75% is more likely low than high. The National Shooting Sports Foundation compiles this sort of information in their annual [Firearms Retailer Survey Report](http://www.nssf.org/research/RetailerSurveyReport/index.cfm?), for which they charge $50 for members, and $500 to non-members. [The Truth About Guns](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/foghorn/nssf-handgun-sales-40-ar-15s-on-the-rise/), a popular enthusiast site, published some of the numbers from the 2012 report, including this [handsome chart](http://truthaboutguns.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/totaltype.jpg) of sales by category for 2009, '10, and '11. As you can see, while assault rifles are popular, and are gaining in popularity, handguns dominate the market, being about twice as popular as the next best-seller, which is assault rifles. I’m telling you, concealed carry is pushing sales at least as much as a prospective AWB. > [@Antinor01](#): > > I suppose I never will understand then. I can’t even begin to imagine what anyone would need with 30. John Entwistle of The Who owned over 200 instruments at the time of his death. Jay Leno owns over 100 cars and 30 motorcycles. For many, guns are a hobby, no different from playing bass or working on old cars, or collecting them. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/94 "2013-12-06T19:55:14Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Then you and I have wildly different ideas of what constitutes “aggressive gun control efforts.” Probably. > [@](#): > > And respectfully, I believe yours is based in emotion, not fact. > . Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/95 "2013-12-06T20:04:38Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > What the hell is your point? He’s trying to make Obama supporters feel like failures, not just for failing to actually achieve gun control, but for being directly responsible for a massive increase in the number of guns in existence. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/96 "2013-12-06T20:14:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > As you can see, while assault rifles are popular, and are gaining in popularity, handguns dominate the market, being about twice as popular as the next best-seller, which is assault rifles. I would really like to see the graph go back further because back in the day, “assault weapons” were relatively fringe. Almost of those firearms would be true assault rifles though. And I would really like to see what the graph would show in 2012. Also handguns with magazines holding more than 10 rounds were banned too, which these day is most handguns. > [@](#): > > I’m telling you, concealed carry is pushing sales at least as much as a prospective AWB. I’d say CCW is pushing sales but CCW is not what literally emptied gun shelves in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/97 "2013-12-06T20:16:53Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > He’s trying to make Obama supporters feel like failures, not just for failing to actually achieve gun control, but for being directly responsible for a massive increase in the number of guns in existence. Bingo! ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/98 "2013-12-06T20:25:58Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s \*\*my subjective estimate \*\*based on going into a lot of gun stores in 2012 and seeing all the “assault” style weapons were sold out. Also it was hard to buy even a revolver from Smith and Wesson, because they curtailed production of non-assault weapons so they could try to better keep up with demand on M&P pistols and AR15s. If you can cite a better estimate I’m all ears. FWIW I think 75% is more likely low than high. I’m shocked - shocked! - that Kable says his view may not be fully based on facts. So your ‘subjective’ estimate is based on the fact that a couple of stores you went into, you found it hard to buy an ‘assault’ style gun there. Maybe they sell like hot cakes. Or maybe they don’t sell worth shit so they don’t bother stocking very many. You said it was also hard to by even a revolver from S&W - the exact same situation, yet here, you instead assume it’s \*not \*because they’re selling well, it’s because another gun is selling well? Handguns are by far the most popular type of gun sold in the US. Assault rifles did see a rise in popularity in 2011…but so did handguns. In any event, I don’t know what the big deal is. In addition to the points I noted above, it’s worth noting that one of the biggest changes in recent years is the expansion of NICS E-Check, which allows federally licensed dealers to do unassisted NICS checks. The number of E-Check users was minimal up until 2005, but started rising sharply from 2007, going from under 2,000 to 2,726 in 2009, 3,766 in 2011, and over 5,000 as of 2012. How this is somehow supposed to make Obama and his supporters ‘failures’ is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/99 "2013-12-06T20:33:26Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I would really like to see the graph go back further because back in the day, “assault weapons” were relatively fringe. Almost of those firearms would be true assault rifles though. And I would really like to see what the graph would show in 2012. Me too, but not enough to cough up $500. > [@Kable](#): > > Also handguns with magazines holding more than 10 rounds were banned too, which these day is most handguns. Not exactly, the magazines were banned, but not the firearms themselves. They were instead issued with 10-round magazines with a floorplate that had a spacer to reduce capacity to 10. The only handguns actually banned from production by the AWB were those that accepted detachable magazines, and two of these features: Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm. > [@Kable](#): > > I’d say CCW is pushing sales but CCW is not what literally emptied gun shelves in 2012. It could well be that 2012 was different from '09-'11, but since the thread is about the entire Obama administration and not just 2012, it’d be drowned out the the data from other years. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > So your ‘subjective’ estimate is based on the fact that a couple of stores you went into, you found it hard to buy an ‘assault’ style gun there. I saw the same thing, and they were selling well; it just doesn’t mean that such rifles were 75%+ of new sales, I think it’s more indicative that demand for such weapons increased faster than expected, and outstripped supply. If you look at the chart I linked to, the jump in sales from '10 to '11 was substantially higher for assault rifles than for any other category, which surely took many manufacturers by surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641/100 "2013-12-06T20:44:02Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m shocked - shocked! - that Kable says his view may not be fully based on facts. It’s based on my observations. I’ve been pretty up front about that, and that my guess was a guess. Are we not allowed to make observations? > [@](#): > > So your ‘subjective’ estimate is based on the fact that a couple of stores you went into, you found it hard to buy an ‘assault’ style gun there. I’ve been to a lot more than a couple stores. I know a number gun store employees, owners, manufacturers insiders, etc. So I think my observations are a lot better than yours are. > [@](#): > > Maybe they sell like hot cakes. Or maybe they don’t sell worth shit so they don’t bother stocking very many. I assure you, it’s the former and I challenge you to prove it’s the latter. > [@](#): > > You said it was also hard to by even a revolver from S&W - the exact same situation, yet here, you instead assume it’s \*not \*because they’re selling well, it’s because another gun is selling well? Yes, Smith and Wesson curtailed production of revolvers to keep up with demand of M&P pistols and M&P (AR15) rifles. I know people who work for Smith and Wesson. > [@](#): > > Handguns are by far the most popular type of gun sold in the US. Assault rifles did see a rise in popularity in 2011…but so did handguns. Gun buyer have been buying “high” capacity pistols in great quantities because they know that Obama et al. wants to ban them along with other “assault” weapons. > [@](#): > > In any event, I don’t know what the big deal is. Just saying you guys sell millions of the very guns you hate the most. It’s not a big deal to me, it actually makes me happy. “Assault weapons” went from fringe to mainstream. You can buy them at Walmart now. > [@](#): > > In addition to the points I noted above, it’s worth noting that one of the biggest changes in recent years is the expansion of NICS E-Check, which allows federally licensed dealers to do unassisted NICS checks. The number of E-Check users was minimal up until 2005, but started rising sharply fro 2007, going from under 2,000 to 2,726 in 2009, 3,766 in 2011, and over 5,000 as of 2012. I’m not sure how changing the form of checks makes the overall numbers change since they were generally mandatory for dealer sales since 1998. If anything more sales are made now that CCW holders can purchase guns without them and CCW holder numbers have increased dramatically over the last few years. > [@](#): > > How this is somehow supposed to make Obama and his supporters ‘failures’ is beyond me. See that’s what this thread is about. To educate you with regards to what was previously beyond you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-really-the-best-gun-salesman-in-america/675641.md?page=6)