# Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119 "2012-11-06T18:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/41 "2012-11-08T23:23:46Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The problem with Trump (well, one of many…) is that if he says “Release the birth certificate” and it’s released, (then they say “forgery”), and if Trump then says “release the college records” and if you release them, it adds more importance than the guy is worth and makes it look like he’s calling the shots. Better to ignore the guy. Not only did Trump want Obama’s college records but he wanted “colleges records and applications” and “passport applications and records.” And it had to be given to Trump within 7 days. College applications from 33+ years ago? Does anyone even remember all the colleges they applied to? Do those colleges keep a record of all applications for over 30 years? Could you contact them all and have them send a copy of your application quickly enough that you could then send it to someone else within 7 days? A passport application? That’s what you fill out and give to the state department in order to get a passport. It’s probably impossible to get. Obama traveled to Pakistan in 1981 and would have had a passport then, if not sooner. Did Trump expect his passport application from 31 years ago? Of course, since it’s all so vague, if it were possible to get those things and he had handed them over, Trump would have just said he didn’t believe they were complete and refuse to give the $5 million. ---
**Author:** ![Dana\_Scully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@Dana\_Scully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dana_Scully)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/42 "2012-11-09T00:05:31Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? > > I don’t remember where I heard this. So I do not know if it is true or not. 1. Someone with bad hair is really clutching at staws, isn’t he? 2. Being a college graduate isn’t a qualifying factor. Age and citizenship are. It seems to me there was some argument that, when George Romney made a run at the presidency, he technically wasn’t qualified because he was born in, I think, Mexico. But he claimed he did qualify because his birth was in an American institution–probably a hospital–which was considered an American zone. Ironic, isn’t it? Although I must say Mitt never sank to that level of compaingning. He’s a smart man; he knows it would have backfired. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/43 "2012-11-09T02:37:33Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > GWB? People-smart maybe (except perhaps when he looked into Putin’s soul …) but hmm. > > Maybe not stoopid, but definitely not bright. His SATs say otherwise. If you have some other data (as opposed to anecdotes) about his intelligence, we’d be happy to see it. As for the OP, I have to wonder if any US presidential candidate has ever released his college transcripts. Sure, some have been leaked, but has any candidate put them out there like tax returns? Also, it should be noted that the CT about Obama extends beyond what grades he might have made, but an interest in what courses he took, especially as an undergrad. _Marxist Ideology 101_, or something along those lines. n.b: Not posting that to imply I believe it, but just to explain the CT more broadly. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/44 "2012-11-09T04:23:34Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > According to Paul Boller, Holmes was actually discussing Teddy Roosevelt, who appointed the great jurist to the court in 1902. James Burns is the attribution to Holmes speaking about FDR; see the [wiki article on FDR, note 77](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt,_Franklin_Delano#First_term.2C_1933.E2.80.931937). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/45 "2012-11-09T04:33:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > His SATs say otherwise. I had to look this up, because I have no idea and, really, it doesn’t mean jack shit, but, for anyone who does care and doesn’t feel like Googling, his SAT verbal was apparently 566 and Math was 640, both out of 800. Both respectable scores. Slightly underpar for an Ivy league, but nothing indicative of academic stupidity or anything like that. I wouldn’t be disappointed if my (at this point, theoretical) child got that score. (Well, or whatever today’s equivalent is–the SAT is now out of 2400, isn’t it?) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/46 "2012-11-09T04:39:43Z")
> [@Dana\_Scully](#): > > Although I must say Mitt never sank to that level of compaingning. He’s a smart man; he knows it would have backfired. Hm. I remember he made at least one joke to that effect. But, yes, he largely relied on his pet commentators and other not-officially-officially-with-me people to do that kind of thing for him. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/48 "2012-11-09T08:41:50Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’ve never had an employer (government or private) ask for my transcripts. Nobody ever even asked what my grades were. Why would anybody give a shit? A degree or post-high school education is not a requirement for the office, let alone copies of transcripts. First the right accuses Obama of being an elitist. When that doesn’t wash, they accuse him of being not very bright and hinting that his records show him to be a poor scholar. The man is right not to respond to the loonies. I know of Silicon Valley companies that don’t even interview people with GPAs below a certain level, and I know of one request for a transcript. However, none of the candidates were ever the equivalent of President of the Law Review - and once you are experienced, no one cares. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/49 "2012-11-09T09:29:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > his SAT verbal was apparently 566 and Math was 640, both out of 800. Both respectable scores. Slightly underpar for an Ivy league, but nothing indicative of academic stupidity or anything like that. I wouldn’t be disappointed if my (at this point, theoretical) child got that score. Bush’s SATs were WAY on the lower end for an Ivy League college. I scored in the mid-1400s around the same time (1460, if I remember correctly, also with higher math than verbal) and I was embarrassingly low for a Ivy League college. My three roommates freshman year were discussing/boasting about ours, and two of them had 1600s and the other had high 1500s. Maybe Bush was an affirmative action applicant? --that would explain how he got in. I would be disappointed if my dog scored in the mid-1200s. He knows how to roll over, sit, fetch, and lie down–almost has “heel” completely mastered, at which point I will put up a big banner saying “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/50 "2012-11-09T10:25:29Z")
Bush was typical of someone from a rich family entering an Ivy League school in 1964. He wasn’t brilliant, but he was smart enough and worked hard when necessary so as to get by. Given his grades at Phillips Academy and his SAT scores, he probably wouldn’t have gotten into Yale except for some pull from his father. Given his grades at Yale, he probably wouldn’t have gotten into Harvard Business School except for some pull from his father. He moved around a lot in businesses, probably because of some pull from his father. At 42 he was finally successful at a business and ran the Texas Rangers for a while. All this would be utterly unremarkable except for one thing. Except for this thing, he was just another rich kid who wasn’t anything brilliant but could get into good schools because of his family and then get good business opportunities because of them too. (He also drank too much until he was about 40.) Had he spent the rest of his life as the head of the Texas Rangers he would be quite typical. The only remarkable thing is that he got elected governor and then President. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/51 "2012-11-09T14:30:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > James Burns is the attribution to Holmes speaking about FDR; see the [wiki article on FDR, note 77](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt,_Franklin_Delano#First_term.2C_1933.E2.80.931937). Burns was operating under a common misconception when he wrote this in 1956. Boller does a pretty good job dissecting the exchange in his book _Not So!_ from Oxford University Press. Nice little read. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/52 "2012-11-09T14:39:47Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Bush’s SATs were WAY on the lower end for an Ivy League college. I scored in the mid-1400s around the same time (1460, if I remember correctly, also with higher math than verbal) and I was embarrassingly low for a Ivy League college. My three roommates freshman year were discussing/boasting about ours, and two of them had 1600s and the other had high 1500s. Maybe Bush was an affirmative action applicant? --that would explain how he got in. > > I would be disappointed if my dog scored in the mid-1200s. He knows how to roll over, sit, fetch, and lie down–almost has “heel” completely mastered, at which point I will put up a big banner saying “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!” Maybe it’s changed. Bush’s scores aren’t fantastic, and I can’t speak to the scores of the time. When I applied to schools in 1993, the Ivies were something like 1250-1405 for the 25%-75%-ile. Actually, [looking up the data](http://oir.yale.edu/detailed-data#ycfreshmen), the oldest numbers I can find are the class of 1980. The 25%ile for verbal from 1976-1990 was in the range of 610-620. The 25%ile for math in that same period was 620-660. So, his numbers were sub-par, but I’m not certain I would characterize it as 'embarrasingly low" if those numbers are similar for when he entered Yale. Look, I scored better than Bush, too, on my SATs, but his number is hardly crazy stupid or anything. And it’s pretty insulting to all the smart people out there who scored in the mid-1200s and lower, saying that you’d be disappointed if your dog scored in the mid-1200s. Now _that_ is dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/53 "2012-11-09T14:47:27Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Bush was typical of someone from a rich family entering an Ivy League school in 1964. He wasn’t brilliant, but he was smart enough and worked hard when necessary so as to get by. Given his grades at Phillips Academy and his SAT scores, he probably wouldn’t have gotten into Yale except for some pull from his father. Given his grades at Yale, he probably wouldn’t have gotten into Harvard Business School except for some pull from his father. He moved around a lot in businesses, probably because of some pull from his father. At 42 he was finally successful at a business and ran the Texas Rangers for a while. A friend likes to point out the George W Bush was rejected by the law school at the University of Texas, a few years before he attended Harvard Business School. ---
**Author:** ![wm.m.thompson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wm.m.thompson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wm.m.thompson)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/54 "2012-11-09T20:43:11Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![wm.m.thompson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wm.m.thompson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wm.m.thompson)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/55 "2012-11-09T20:45:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Candidates usually do not release their college records. The grades of a few candidates over the years have been leaked, and from that, people got the impression that the release of those grades was standard. It isn’t. For the candidates there is no upside to releasing your grades and some downside: if your grades are great, people will say ‘who cares - it’s old news.’ If they’re bad, people will say it shows the candidate is an idiot. What is the straight dope? People here are dancing around the question. Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? The ones I know of before him all released their college records no matter if they were good or bad. The fact that it is old news is not part of the question or the answer. If there was a president other than Obama that you know of that had been through college and did not release the records, tell me. Otherwise either say you do not know or… here is an idea… don’t contribute. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. By the way, the tone of that response sounds defensive. Why is that? Are you being defensive? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/56 "2012-11-09T20:46:24Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > [No.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072799.htm) > > They were subsequently leaked, as were Gore’s; Kerry [released his voluntarily after the campaign was over](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8127403/ns/politics/t/kerry-got-slow-start-yale-transcript-shows/), but declined to do so during the campaign. No idea about Clinton, and I’d be surprised if this was even an issue with previous generations of candidates. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. Did you ask the question **Porpentine** answered? > [@](#): > > Bush has not given permission to either Andover or Yale to release his grades. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/57 "2012-11-09T20:49:43Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. What’s the first word of my post? That’s your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/58 "2012-11-09T20:50:49Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > The ones I know of before him all released their college records no matter if they were good or bad. Wrong. > [@](#): > > By the way, the tone of that response sounds defensive. Why is that? Are you being defensive? Hardly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/59 "2012-11-09T20:51:23Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > The ones I know of before him all released their college records no matter if they were good or bad. Cite. Please provide documentation of other presidents who have publicly released them, rather than having them leaked without their permission. So far, you’ve provided no evidence that any president has ever released any of their records. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/60 "2012-11-09T20:57:52Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > What is the straight dope? A message board devoted to fighting ignorance. It’s taking longer than we thought… > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > People here are dancing around the question. You’ve been answered multiple times. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? Nope. Not a single President has willingly released his college records. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > The ones I know of before him all released their college records no matter if they were good or bad. Name them. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > The fact that it is old news is not part of the question or the answer. It is, however, relevant. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > If there was a president other than Obama that you know of that had been through college and did not release the records, tell me. Otherwise either say you do not know or… here is an idea… don’t contribute. None of them released their records. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. It’s not standard. No previous President has released his college transcripts. Why is it so important that we see Obama’s? What are you hoping to find? > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > By the way, the tone of that response sounds defensive. Why is that? Are you being defensive? Answering your question and pointing out that it’s been asked purely for political “gotcha ya” points isn’t being defensive. I’m also a little unclear as to how you’re getting a “defensive” tone from someone’s text. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/61 "2012-11-09T21:11:06Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? To my knowledge, _no president had ever released his college records._ I think half a dozen posters made this clear, so I am wondering if maybe you’re asking a much pickier question about the idea of _declining_ to release those records. The answer in that case might be yes, Obama is the first. That’s because as far as I know no other president has been asked. By the time Bush was elected a newspaper had already reported on his grades. _He did not release them._ John Kerry released his college transcripts some time after he lost the election. John McCain’s class rank was reported years before he ran for president. I don’t know who else had to put up with this request. But if you’re looking at it that way, I don’t think Obama has declined to release his transcripts. He just hasn’t done it yet. > [@](#): > > The ones I know of before him all released their college records no matter if they were good or bad. No, they didn’t. I explained this already. > [@](#): > > I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. There’s no reason to complain about contextual information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119.md?page=4)