# Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119 "2012-11-06T18:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/62 "2012-11-09T22:16:56Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? > > I don’t remember where I heard this. So I do not know if it is true or not. > [@Marley23](#): > > Candidates usually do not release their college records. The grades of a few candidates over the years have been leaked, and from that, people got the impression that the release of those grades was standard. It isn’t. For the candidates there is no upside to releasing your grades and some downside: if your grades are great, people will say ‘who cares - it’s old news.’ If they’re bad, people will say it shows the candidate is an idiot. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. > [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. I’m lost here. “Is Obama the first …who has declined to release his college records?” “Candidate do not usually release them” “No. it is not standard.” The only way “that is not what I asked” makes sense as a reply to all this is if the fact is that nobody else was ever asked. Bush UU was asked and declined -direct answer, direct response. Good Answer. Nobody does as a matter of policy - pretty much nails the lid shut on the question. Why so many back-and-forths? What is the specific question. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/63 "2012-11-09T22:32:56Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Clearly a deep seeded mole, intending to influence the national election by introducing last-minute doubts into all four thousand members of the SDMB. It does support the grassy knowl-edge theory of drive by shootings. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/64 "2012-11-09T22:58:24Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > No, that is not what I asked. I did not ask if it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. You asked if Obama was the first not to release his records. Several people here pointed out that presidents don’t usually release their college transcripts. That seems like a direct answer to your question, unless your quibble is that there’s a difference between records and transcripts. Is that what this is all about? Are records different from transcripts? ---
**Author:** ![wm.m.thompson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wm.m.thompson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wm.m.thompson)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/65 "2012-11-10T00:34:19Z")
Am I missing something? What does Bush have to do with this? Bush released his college records. I want the straight dope. I do not want suppositions and generalizations. Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? Is the answer yes, and no one is afraid to admit it? Why are there so many posts that stray from the topic? ---
**Author:** ![wm.m.thompson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wm.m.thompson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wm.m.thompson)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/66 "2012-11-10T00:37:13Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m lost here. > “Is Obama the first …who has declined to release his college records?” > “Candidate do not usually release them” > “No. it is not standard.” > > The only way “that is not what I asked” makes sense as a reply to all this is if the fact is that nobody else was ever asked. Bush UU was asked and declined -direct answer, direct response. Good Answer. Nobody does as a matter of policy - pretty much nails the lid shut on the question. Why so many back-and-forths? > > What is the specific question. Is Bush UU, Bush W? Do you have any historic link that any other president was asked and declined? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/67 "2012-11-10T00:37:49Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Am I missing something? > > What does Bush have to do with this? Bush released his college records. > > I want the straight dope. I do not want suppositions and generalizations. > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? > > Is the answer yes, and no one is afraid to admit it? > > Why are there so many posts that stray from the topic? 😕 What are you talking about? The posts have addressed your topic clearly. And, no, Bush did not release his records. They were leaked. Are we reading two different threads or am I in some sort of alternate reality? ---
**Author:** ![Sending\_Ropes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Sending\_Ropes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sending_Ropes)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/68 "2012-11-10T00:52:10Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Am I missing something? > > What does Bush have to do with this? Bush released his college records. > > I want the straight dope. I do not want suppositions and generalizations. > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? > > Is the answer yes, and no one is afraid to admit it? > > Why are there so many posts that stray from the topic? Have you, **wm.m.thompson** , stopped beating your wife? I want the straight dope. Just reply yes or no. Please, no explanations or equivocations, just yes or no. If the answer is yes, why would you be afraid to admit it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/69 "2012-11-10T01:11:57Z")
“And I’m going to _continue_ asking these questions until I get the answer I want to hear!” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/70 "2012-11-10T01:14:29Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > What does Bush have to do with this? Bush released his college records. If that were the case, you would be able to link to a webpage at which these records are available. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/71 "2012-11-10T01:20:03Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > What does Bush have to do with this? Bush released his college records. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/72 "2012-11-10T01:26:40Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Am I missing something? Yes. You are missing the answers to your questions even though they are written in plain English. > [@](#): > > Bush released his college records. [No, he didn’t. This has been explained repeatedly.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072799.htm) [They were leaked to The New Yorker.](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1999/11/08/1999_11_08_030_TNY_LIBRY_000019458) [He did post them on his re-election campaign website after they were already public.](http://2004.georgewbush.org/bios/yale-transcript.asp) ---
**Author:** ![J\_Cubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@J\_Cubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_Cubed)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/73 "2012-11-10T02:15:03Z")
> [@Sending\_Ropes](#): > > Have you, **wm.m.thompson** , stopped beating your wife? > > I want the straight dope. Just reply yes or no. > Please, no explanations or equivocations, just yes or no. > > If the answer is yes, why would you be afraid to admit it? Is **wm.m.thompson** the first sdmb poster who refuses to answer if he has stopped beating his wife? Simple question. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/74 "2012-11-10T02:42:19Z")
> [@wm.m.thompson](#): > > Am I missing something? > > What does Bush have to do with this? Bush released his college records. > > I want the straight dope. I do not want suppositions and generalizations. > > Is Obama the first president with a college degree who has declined to release his college records? > > Is the answer yes, and no one is afraid to admit it? > > Why are there so many posts that stray from the topic? **[Moderator Note]** **wm.m.thompson** , you’ve been given a number of plain and simple direct answers to your questions. You have provided no evidence to support your own statements. You have already been informed that Bush did not release his own college records, yet continue to state that he did. Asking the same questions over and over again after they have been answered in my opinion constitutes trolling. Continue in this vein and this thread will be closed. If you have evidence that another president released his college records, provide it in your next post. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/75 "2012-11-10T07:35:31Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I would be disappointed if my dog scored in the mid-1200s. He knows how to roll over, sit, fetch, and lie down–almost has “heel” completely mastered, at which point I will put up a big banner saying “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!” **Moderator Warning** **pseudotriton ruber ruber** , you’ve been around long enough to know that political jabs are not permitted in General Questions. This is an official warning. Do not do this again. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/76 "2012-11-10T14:25:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Maybe it’s changed. Bush’s scores aren’t fantastic, and I can’t speak to the scores of the time. When I applied to schools in 1993, the Ivies were something like 1250-1405 for the 25%-75%-ile. > > Actually, [looking up the data](http://oir.yale.edu/detailed-data#ycfreshmen), the oldest numbers I can find are the class of 1980. The 25%ile for verbal from 1976-1990 was in the range of 610-620. The 25%ile for math in that same period was 620-660. So, his numbers were sub-par, but I’m not certain I would characterize it as 'embarrasingly low" if those numbers are similar for when he entered Yale. Please remember that the IQ tests and the SAT are not taken by the same pool of people. IQ tests are taken by, and normed against, the whole population. The SAT is taken by people who are trying to get into college. Quite a few people never apply for college. 43% of folks never attend a college at all. [1] A 50th percentile SAT is quite likely going to belong to a person whose percentile score on an IQ test is higher than 50. [1] [Educational attainment in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States#cite_note-2) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/77 "2012-11-10T14:32:06Z")
> [@Mr.Slant](#): > > Please remember that the IQ tests and the SAT are not taken by the same pool of people. A good additional point, and further proof of how silly it is to consider a mid-1200s score mediocre or poor. It may be a bit low for an Ivy (although not off-the-charts so), but it’s not a score a “dumb” person would get. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/78 "2012-11-10T14:34:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Warning** > > **pseudotriton ruber ruber** , you’ve been around long enough to know that political jabs are not permitted in General Questions. This is an official warning. Do not do this again. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Yes, apologize to your dog now! If I google “w bush college transcript” most of the first page is stuff like this thread, all saying the same - Bush did not release his transcripts, but someone leaked them, because, all jabs aside, there was significant discussion of his intellectual ability. This news story - is mainly about Obama’s college years, but also mentions that the Bush transcripts were leaked. [http://www.theblaze.com/stories/5-facts-we-know-about-obamas-college-years/](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/5-facts-we-know-about-obamas-college-years/) > [@](#): > > **wm.m.thompson** > > Is Bush UU, Bush W? Very good. You figured out that word play bit! we’ll add 10 to your SAT. > [@](#): > > Do you have any historic link that any other president was asked and declined Again, all Google seems to say is that UU did **NOT** authorize the release of his transcripts. They leaked anyway. Do you have an authoritative cite that he did? McCain declined to release his transcript, but they say he graduated bottom of his class. However, he never struck me as lacking in brains… deep in this article: [http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas-years-at-columbia-are-a-mystery/85015/](http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas-years-at-columbia-are-a-mystery/85015/) This article contrasts Obama’s “secrecy” with the fact that Bush released his transcripts, then at the bottom has the correction that Bush did NOT release his transcripts, they were leaked. > **[The Vetting - Exclusive Document Debunks Myth About Obama's Columbia Years](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2012/05/18/the-vetting-exclusive-first-obama-columbia-record-released/)** > > | And so on… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/79 "2012-11-10T14:48:57Z")
A bit more in depth article, still on page 1 of google results: > **[College transcripts replace birth certificate for Obama detractors](https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-xpm-2012-may-28-la-pn-college-transcripts-replace-birth-certificate-for-obama-detractors-20120526-story.html)** > > College transcripts replace birth certificate for Obama detractors > [@](#): > > In 1999, the New Yorker published an apparently purloined copy of George W. Bush’s Yale transcript before he became the Republican nominee for president. > … > > During the 2004 presidential campaign, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry was assumed by many to be Bush’s intellectual superior. But months after he lost to Bush, his college transcripts were inadvertently sent to the Boston Globe and he was revealed to be a C student as well, earning four Ds his freshman year. (Stung by allegations that his Vietnam War service was not what he had claimed, Kerry had given permission for his Navy records to be turned over to the newspaper. The college records were part of those documents.) Can a mediocre student hope to achieve the highest office? > > The answer is self-evident. > > “To those of you who received honors, awards and distinctions, I say well done,” President Bush told Yale graduates in 2001. “And to the C students, I say you too can be president of the United States.” Elsewhere I find this, > [@](#): > > Did bush release his college transcripts? > No, George W Bush never authorized the release of his college transcripts from either Yale (undergraduate) or Harvard Business School M(MBA), which are kept private under the federal FERPA law. However, the New Yorker did manage to acquire a “purloined” copy of what they claimed was Bush’s Yale transcripts, and published them in 1999. The Harvard transcripts remain unavailable. And, yes, I cannot find any indication of his MBA grades anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/80 "2012-11-10T15:00:06Z")
One professor, who apparently does not like Bush’s political positions, has been quoted as saying that in his MBA class, Bush was “in the bottom 10%” and not prepared. ---
**Author:** ![wm.m.thompson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wm.m.thompson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wm.m.thompson)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119/81 "2012-11-17T11:23:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, it has never been standard for presidents or presidential nominees to release their college transcripts. Try again. That does not answer my question. > [@Marley23](#): > > Candidates usually do not release their college records. The grades of a few candidates over the years have been leaked, and from that, people got the impression that the release of those grades was standard. It isn’t. For the candidates there is no upside to releasing your grades and some downside: if your grades are great, people will say ‘who cares - it’s old news.’ If they’re bad, people will say it shows the candidate is an idiot. That does not answer my question. > [@babygoat666](#): > > It is a paranoid conspiracy theory still attempting to portray him as foreign-born. Nothing more. That does not answer my question and that does not make sense. > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Addendum: I suppose it may be _technically_ true that no president has declined to release his college records, but only because Bush wasn’t president yet when he declined, and it’s entirely possible that none of the other presidents were ever asked. Bush DID release his college records. That is why everyone knows he was such an average student. > [@smithsb](#): > > Should note the the thread poster is a drive-by shooter. Still not a bad question - just wondering about the motive. No motive. Not a drive by shooter. Just asking the question. So I think it is safe to say now that, yes, Obama is the first president with a college record that has refused to release his records. I don’t understand the posters here. Lots of emotion and little logic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obama-the-first-president-with-a-college-degree-who-has-declined-to-release-his-college-records/640119.md?page=5)