# Is Obamacare causing layoffs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685 "2012-11-21T03:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/101 "2012-11-27T02:59:35Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > Okay, Frylock, what you’re failing to understand is that I AM the reference people quote. You _might_ come to regret this quote. Speaking as an outsider in this discussion: regardless of your own personal experience in the field, which may indeed be impressive and extensive, when you make an assertion of fact people are going to want to see citations. Saying you don’t have to post those because you’re an expert isn’t going to work (it’s more likely to get you mocked). That’s how discussions work around here. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/102 "2012-11-27T03:02:58Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > If you want to get better at it, however, I suggest practicing a few things. First, make an effort to admit what the bad parts of the law are. This gets your opposition to lower their guard and start listening to you. Second, practice focusing your arguments on concepts, not politics. For example, instead of challenging me based on a “lack of references,” you could have, for example, replied that emergency room wait times did not increase substantially under the Massachusetts law. Whether or not this is true, I don’t know, but you could have feigned a compelling argument that could have had me rechecking my sources. I don’t suggest admitting somebody is a professional health policy analyst, and then flat out contradicting said professional for not quoting references, for the same reason you wouldn’t tell your doctor to start quoting the literature to you before he treats you. It’s implied that a professional in his field has an intimate understanding of the subject matter. If you’d like to stick around here, I suggest practicing a few things. First, bring a citation for the shit you are saying. Peer reviewed journal articles. Research reported by reputable journalists. This gets people to believe that you are not talking out of your ass and gets people to take you seriously. Second, practice focusing your posts on not simply quoting yourself as the resident expert on the subject. For example, you could have provided a single reference for any of the things you have claimed. I don’t suggest coming to a board in…hmm…what’s that, November 2012?..and then waving your dick around like you’re the only one here that knows anything about anything. It’s implied in the guidelines of the forum that you provide citations for your assertions, professional or not. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/103 "2012-11-27T03:08:41Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > Okay, Frylock, what you’re failing to understand is that I AM the reference people quote. We have physicists who post here about physics. They often provide links in those posts. They’re under much less pressure to do so than you are, because it is well established who they are and what they do. > [@](#): > > It does not make sense that you could: 1) admit I’m a professional in the health policy field; and then 2) say my opinion doesn’t count without a reference. I didn’t “admit” you’re a professional in the health policy field. I said I don’t doubt it. But that doesn’t mean I believe you either. I neither doubt nor believe it. It’s just a claim you’ve made, and I don’t judge it true or false. To say I “doubt” it would typically imply that I think you’re lying. But I _don’t_ think you’re lying. Neither do I think you’re telling the truth. I have no clue who you are. If you want to provide, as your link, some kind of professional credential found online, that would work as the “citation” I said you should provide (“I’m an expert, and here’s my opinion, and here’s the proof I’m an expert” is more credible than “I’m an expert and here’s my opinion,” but less credible than “I’m an expert and here’s my opinion and here’s the evidence for my opinion.”) Strangely indirect, though, since I assume you can provide something more direct… ---
**Author:** ![apriori234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19b73/32.png) [@apriori234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apriori234)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/104 "2012-11-27T03:17:39Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > This line of logic might stand if diseases and medical problems typically fixed themselves over time. If I don’t have insurance I’ll wait till it gets real bad and then your insurance will have to cover my emergency expenses, in the same why you pay for every shoplifted book with your purchase at Barnes & Noble. > > Everyone needs coverage, or everyone is on their own. What exists now is what is unfair. Frylock and GIGObuster, please take note of the way Sitnam responded to me. This is the way you need to respond to people like me. Sitnam has done an excellent job of forcing me to elaborate my assertion on the difference between health insurance and auto insurance. He responded to my concept with a concept, and not with a direct contradiction, personal insult, or by saying I needed to quote references lest I be automatically wrong. It is too easy to knock you guys down when you put partisanship before the concept. Sitnam, you make a very good point: When it is used, auto insurance may present an expensive fix, but it’s usually a one-time fix. In contrast, the costs of health insurance may encounter years of expensive fixes. It is an actual problem that people hold off on purchasing insurance until they need it, which raises the costs for everybody else. This is an attitude especially seen in younger populations. However, the problem with making everybody buy insurance is that it’s a band-aid fix to the system. It takes money from the healthier population and redistributes it to the older population, and thus eases the financial burden for those who need it more. What a mandate doesn’t do is address the cost and access issues that led to the increased cost of health care in the first place. Without reforms such as allowing carriers to sell policies across state lines or liability tort reforms, costs will keep going up across the population spectrum, and especially because dedicated money will be flooded into a system with limited resources; the purchasing power of each health care dollar goes down when there’s too much money and not enough services on which to spend the money, leading to continued price inflation. But a secondary issue is increased demand for access to the limited medical services available. All the newly insured will want to use their health insurance because it cost them so much. Again, this translates to months waiting to get an appointment and increased pressure on emergency departments. There’s simply not enough physicians to handle the demand. This isn’t to say that I don’t think people should go without access. For every dollar spent on preventive primary care, $40 is saved down the road in prevented tertiary care. Imagine the amount of money that could be saved if we as a culture adopted a prevention mindset instead of a treatment mindset. And thank you, Sitnam, for being logical. ---
**Author:** ![apriori234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19b73/32.png) [@apriori234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apriori234)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/105 "2012-11-27T03:22:09Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I didn’t “admit” you’re a professional in the health policy field. I said I don’t doubt it. But that doesn’t mean I believe you either. I neither doubt nor believe it. It’s just a claim you’ve made, and I don’t judge it true or false. > > To say I “doubt” it would typically imply that I think you’re lying. But I _don’t_ think you’re lying. Neither do I think you’re telling the truth. I have no clue who you are. Did you work for Bill Clinton? And you can’t be serious to expect that I am going to publicly identify myself. I am a critic of the signature law who gets his money from the administration that wrote the law. I work with politicians, and I’m not stupid. Suffice it to say, with all the numbers I quoted, it would have been pretty easy for you to check online to see whether or not I’m lying. Probably would have taken less time than figuring out that gem of logic you provided. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/106 "2012-11-27T03:27:12Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > It was because the physician shortage meant that there weren’t enough doctors in the state to see the influx of new patients. If somebody needed to see a doctor, they had to wait two to three months on average, and simply because there weren’t enough doctors. The audacity! We increased healthcare coverage and then PEOPLE USED IT! Those poor people will try and take advantage of everything. If they had just stayed home the there would be more room for the truly deserving job creators. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/107 "2012-11-27T03:31:39Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > Frylock and GIGObuster, please take note of the way Sitnam responded to me. This is the way you need to respond to people like me. I disagree. You said several things about how things went in MA which are not obvious. Your citation for the things you said is, “I’m an expert.” You’re new here. I don’t know who you are. So your word that you’re an expert simply doesn’t do anything at all to establish that what you said about MA is true. I have responded in exactly the right way–which is this: I explained why I don’t believe you, (nor do I believe you’re wrong,) and explained what the conventions are for these kinds of discussions here at the SDMB. > [@](#): > > Sitnam has done an excellent job of forcing me to elaborate my assertion on the difference between health insurance and auto insurance. He responded to my concept with a concept, and not with a direct contradiction, personal insult, or by saying I needed to quote references lest I be automatically wrong. It is too easy to knock you guys down when you put partisanship before the concept. In responding to an argument, there are two non-exclusive approaches one can take, as I’m sure you know. One can question the premises, or one can question the reasoning. As you noted, Sitnam questioned your reasoning, thereby showing a need for clarification. Good for him! You are right that he did a good thing here! Yay! Meanwhile, I am not questioning you’re reasoning, I am questioning one of your premises. And when premises are being questioned, _exactly_ the right way to respond is to provide a citation. Sitnam didn’t need to ask for a cite because he was talking about your reasoning, not your premises. I need to ask for a cite because I’m talking about your premise. ---
**Author:** ![apriori234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19b73/32.png) [@apriori234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apriori234)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/108 "2012-11-27T03:34:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You _might_ come to regret this quote. > > Speaking as an outsider in this discussion: regardless of your own personal experience in the field, which may indeed be impressive and extensive, when you make an assertion of fact people are going to want to see citations. Saying you don’t have to post those because you’re an expert isn’t going to work (it’s more likely to get you mocked). That’s how discussions work around here. Thanks for letting me know. I am open to being mocked if that’s the modus operandi of this discussion board. If any fact I present is untrue, then please call me out on it. I also respectfully submit that if mocking is acceptable for not citing references, then it should be even more acceptable to mock those who substitute politics in exchange for measured, reasoned discussion. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/109 "2012-11-27T03:35:42Z")
And wait, what have we [here](http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-cohn/88075/no-romneycare-not-failure#): > [@](#): > > Opinion writers at Forbes, the National Review, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Examiner, among others, say this proves Romney’s Massachusetts health plan has failed and that the Affordable Care Act, which expands insurance coverage in a similar way, will fail as well. “The ObamaCare preview that Massachusetts has been conducting for the last several years grows more ominous by the month,” the Journal says. “Perhaps you should book your checkups now, in advance of the national sequel.” > > But the report tells a far more complicated story, one that may not have much (if anything) to do with health care reform. … > While the long waits for physician services in Massachusetts seem real enough, the very same survey reveals that the long waits existed before Romney’s law took effect in January, 2007…Reported wait times go up and down, year to year, which is precisely the sort of statistical noise you’d expect from a survey that relies on small samples size and the non-scientific testimony from physicians. Evidence of longer waiting times since the introduction of Romney’s plan seems thin, at best. > > Elsewhere, it appears that primary care physicians (although not specialists) are becoming less likely to see new patients. And that’s certainly worrisome. But that decay was also underway before the Massachusetts reforms: It doesn’t appear to have accelerated starting in 2007. The Journal and others also point to a 2010 study on rising emergency room usage between 2004 and 2008. But, again, the rate of increase didn’t change after reform: It was going up before the coverage expansion took place. In fact, the most detailed study of ER usage in Massachusetts I’ve seen comes from Sarah Miller, a graduate student at the University of Illinois. It suggests that reform’s direct effect was to reduce utilization, albeit very slightly. Emphasis mone. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/110 "2012-11-27T03:37:13Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > Did you work for Bill Clinton? I haven’t said anything particularly complex or confusing, certainly nothing untrue. > [@](#): > > And you can’t be serious to expect that I am going to publicly identify myself. I have no idea what you are going to do. I don’t have any idea who you are. Some experts here readily identify themselves, others do not. Who knows which kind you are?! > [@](#): > > Suffice it to say, with all the numbers I quoted, it would have been pretty easy for you to check online to see whether or not I’m lying. Probably would have taken less time than figuring out that gem of logic you provided. You are taking up a lot of extra time talking about credentials etc. It would be very easy for you to just _provide references for your factual claims_. I don’t have the first clue how to find out, from any official source, whether the claims you made about Massachusettes are true or not. “All the numbers” you quoted? I don’t know what you’re talking about. The post I asked for references for contained a single number and I wasn’t asking for a citation for it. I was asking for references in support of your claims that, as a result of the health care law in MA, newly insured people couldn’t see a doctor in MA because there was an influx in new patients, and so they went to the ER for treatment instead. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/111 "2012-11-27T03:39:51Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > Thanks for letting me know. I am open to being mocked if that’s the modus operandi of this discussion board. If any fact I present is untrue, then please call me out on it. I also respectfully submit that if mocking is acceptable for not citing references, then it should be even more acceptable to mock those who substitute politics in exchange for measured, reasoned discussion. It is your job to provide substantiation for the points you make. We try not to be like “discussions” that take place on news-talk-entertainment venues, where people are allowed to say whatever they want, true or false, and require their interlocutors to interrupt them to contradict if they can get a word in edgewise. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/112 "2012-11-27T03:46:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Again, the people who will be hardest hit will be poorer workers who this law was ostensibly supposed to help. Many of them are going to see what little health care coverage they have through their employers dropped completely. Then they’ll be facing fines that start at about $800/yr and go up to $2,000/yr for not having coverage. For some who can’t afford the coverage available through the exchanges, the net result of Obamacare will be that they not only lose whatever insurance they have now, but they’ll also have to pay the fine for not having health insurance. I’m probably not the poorest worker, but I’ll be losing my employer provided health insurance. It’s too early for me to work out all the details, but it looks like it’s going to be an additional burden to me under the new system. We’re taking delivery of more manufacturing robots next week to reduce employees, but we’ll still be over 50. Pretty dreary outlook. There are very few doctors left here, our hospital is going through about the third change of hands in the last year and will likely close soon, and no insurance. The two things that I really don’t understand: All the talk about how the high healthcare costs are the fault of the insurance industry. I’ve seen the itemized statements, and the problem I see is for the amount of services billed. The charges for some services are staggering. The insurance industry didn’t set the charges. Second, the US Space Program. We were told that the US had to privatize the space program, the government just wasn’t as efficient as private industry. Yet we were also told that private industry was incapable of efficiently running health care, only the government could manage such a program. So the government couldn’t handle the relatively minor space program, ate their lunch. But handle 20% of GDP in healthcare? No sweat. I’m skeptical, but happy to be proven wrong. I’ll no doubt be on a fast track learning curve here shortly, and I think it’s great that Americans on the fringe will be getting health care. It doesn’t appear it’s going to work out all that well in my case, financially, but I guess we all need to pitch in and carry our load. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/113 "2012-11-27T03:47:57Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > Of course I knew that, and my primary post reflected that. Then you said I wasn’t who I was, which changed the subject. What you quoted was my response to your having changed the subject. And the point I’m making is that you are tap dancing to avoid dealing with the evidence, as pointed before, examples like Massachusetts shows that layoffs are not going to be as numerous as the ones opposed to reform are implying or affirming. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/114 "2012-11-27T03:56:59Z")
You don’t have to be a policy analys to have an opinion on health care costs. I am an expert in my field - and that makes it EASY for me to find citations. To me - this levels the playing field. I can tell all I need to know about who is telling the truth about small businesses when republicans talk about how devastating this will be to small business. 96% of small businesses aren’t even subject to penalties (obviously dollar wise this is different). You don’t need to be an expert on the ACA to tell that something can’t be this awful thing for something when it doesn’t even effect 96% of something. For the other 4% - they should be offering healthcare. If everyone is forced to - then this levels the playing field and I seriously doubt they will be forced out due to this. Common sense says supply/demand will take over. Aren’t there tax breaks for small businesses that didn’t used to exist? Is it possible it will help some people? 1. I would like to see the real differences between Obamacare and Romneycare. Romneycare can’t be all that bad - only 33% in MA oppose it: [http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/02/15/426255/poll-romneycare-overwhelmingly-popular-in-massachusetts/?mobile=wt](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/02/15/426255/poll-romneycare-overwhelmingly-popular-in-massachusetts/?mobile=wt) 2. I would love to see all the press releases that went out after the bush tax cuts showing all the jobs that were created after business were saving tens of thousands a year. To suggest that only experts can have an opinion on this is silly - and further they don’t have to provide cites is silly. ---
**Author:** ![joew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@joew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joew)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/115 "2012-11-27T03:58:37Z")
Ooh ooh ooh I am a health care analyst too!!! And I am actually a manager! That means I have more XP and am close to grinding my way up another level! Dude is right in that when people are given access to health care that they use it. But I don’t think that is a huge surprise to anyone. He is also right that we have a severe shortage in many parts of the country with regards to PCP and physician extenders. That is a problem that would take decades to fix and some of it is due to how physicians a reimbursed. (Encourage specialists, discourage primary care) but this also an issue that will get resolved due to market changes given an enough time. Just because people rush to the doctor as soon as they get insurance doesn’t mean that they will keep rushing to it every three months thereafter. But I think that he is missing the larger point. That has nothing to do with layoffs. There are many many many different reasons that companies are relegated to laying off people. But when asked, they usually give just one. Something easy, something fun, something that absolves themselves of the blame. The actual costs of Obamacare are no different than any other cost of doing business. Consumers expect to pay it. We do not expect companies to sell products at a loss (ah the days of the dot com bubble…). Every time we buy anything, some of the purchase price goes to pay for health insurance now. Heck we are paying for the corporate jet, too. And for every sick day that little sick Sally has had. (Pure speculation, but wouldn’t less sick time due to better access to care equal more productivity equal lowered costs equal more Profit?) But I do know this. I am an expert. Trust me. I am a level 99 manager of health care analysts. TL;DR - Is Obamacare causing layoffs? A minuscule amount of the layoffs that will be attributed to Obamacare will actually be CAUSED by Obamacare. Like maybe 1. A certain senior health care analyst who works for the federal government springs to mind… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/116 "2012-11-27T04:02:30Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Second, the US Space Program. We were told that the US had to privatize the space program, the government just wasn’t as efficient as private industry. Yet we were also told that private industry was incapable of efficiently running health care, only the government could manage such a program. Let’s say that Obamacare is a government takeover of health care, and furthermore that all of the same people who support Obamacare also support the privatization of the space program. Even given all of this, surely it isn’t impossible to believe that some things are run better by the government than others? Do you think that everyone who believes that the government should run our court system also believes that the government should be in charge of all artwork created in America? ---
**Author:** ![apriori234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19b73/32.png) [@apriori234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apriori234)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/117 "2012-11-27T04:09:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I disagree. You said several things about how things went in MA which are not obvious. Why do you think they’re not obvious, Frylock? Is it because being a professional, I would know things that are less than obvious to the layman? > [@Frylock](#): > > Your citation for the things you said is, “I’m an expert.” You’re new here. I don’t know who you are. So your word that you’re an expert simply doesn’t do anything at all to establish that what you said about MA is true. You want an easy way to know if I’m full of stuff? You have access to the internet. With the sheer number of things I’ve said, you should have be able to quickly counter anything I’ve put forward. It’s easy enough to make me put a sock in it, yet I haven’t seen you try that. > [@Frylock](#): > > I have responded in exactly the right way–which is this: I explained why I don’t believe you, (nor do I believe you’re wrong,) and explained what the conventions are for these kinds of discussions here at the SDMB. I’ve seen plenty of posts here without citations, and I doubt you’re all professional policy analysts. Why am I the only one, therefore, suddenly being told to give citations? > [@Frylock](#): > > In responding to an argument, there are two non-exclusive approaches one can take, as I’m sure you know. One can question the premises, or one can question the reasoning. … Meanwhile, I am not questioning you’re reasoning, I am questioning one of your premises. And when premises are being questioned, _exactly_ the right way to respond is to provide a citation. Sitnam didn’t need to ask for a cite because he was talking about your reasoning, not your premises. I need to ask for a cite because I’m talking about your premise. Frylock, based on the fact that within this discussion you’ve presented your views on the law without presenting citations yourself, while still not yet telling me what your own qualifications are to expound on the health policies of the ACA, I’m going to assume that this is an attempt at character assassination to distract the discussion away from the fact that I’ve presented facts that you simply are unprepared to counter. A high school student could have shut me up by now by posting links discrediting what I have to say. Again, I’ll put it out there that you are likely someone who supported the law from the beginning without knowing what it does, simply as a validation of your political worldview, and suddenly you’re confronted by somebody who does this for a living and is knocking you down point by point. Instead of being capable of defending your beliefs, you present the fallacious argument that I shouldn’t be listened to simply because I have not proffered my credentials to you. It is easy enough for a person to discredit anything I am saying, yet nobody who has claimed that I should be citing things (when they themselves have not, and are likely not professionals themselves, either) has bothered taking one thing I’ve said and put it under a microscope. If you can’t defend yourself, give it up. ---
**Author:** ![joew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@joew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joew)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/118 "2012-11-27T04:25:21Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > All the talk about how the high healthcare costs are the fault of the insurance industry. I’ve seen the itemized statements, and the problem I see is for the amount of services billed. The charges for some services are staggering. The insurance industry didn’t set the charges. There are many reasons for the high cost of providing health care in the US. Not all of it is the insurers fault. And anyone who says that it is the sole or even main reason is ill informed. However, having a multitude of insurance companies provides a lot of overhead in our system. From billing, to contracts, to even just profit. There are several reasons that insurance companies raise costs. Duplication of services is another. But a common problem for health consumers is that they see the amount charged on a bill and think that number actually means something. It rarely, rarely does. The amount that providers charge is largely a fairy tale number. It is kind of like the MSRP for health care. We would love to get it! But we never expect to. I my experience, most insurance companies have a set amount that they pay for service (often adjusted for location, wages, etc) no matter how much the provider charges. Some facilities (particularly trauma centers and those along major transportation routes) will have even higher charges because they get out of state patients frequently and patients paid via commercial insurance (i.e. car insurance). Because health insurance companies are limited by state it is not financially prudent for every insurance company to have contracts with every provider. Often these insurers will pay a percent of charges as the number of cases is typically low enough that it makes financial sense for them to do so. Basically (nowadays at least) this is the main reason that provider charges are nutso. Oh and some providers are asshats and try to make self-pay patients carry the full bill. That is crap and those providers should be exposed. Any facility that I have ever worked for automatically knocked at least 75% off the total charges for any self-pay patient. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/119 "2012-11-27T04:47:57Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > A high school student could have shut me up by now by posting links discrediting what I have to say. Dang. That’s harsh. Good thing we don’t have many high school students here. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685/120 "2012-11-27T04:51:24Z")
> [@apriori234](#): > > It is easy enough for a person to discredit anything I am saying, yet nobody who has claimed that I should be citing things (when they themselves have not, and are likely not professionals themselves, either) has bothered taking one thing I’ve said and put it under a microscope. It is easy to do when you attempt to say the microscope is not there, I’m referring to the Urban Institute report. I have not seen anything coming from you to contradict what the Urban Institute reported from Massachusetts, remember you claimed that “Obamacare is causing layoffs. In particular, it’s the part with all the taxes to pay for the program.” So do you have any evidence to counteract what they and others report on how reform and the taxes are not a cause of job losses or a heavy burden on businesses? It is interesting also to notice how the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority and Executive Office of Health and Human Services, does not report what you are claiming regarding the troubles (other than the almost non existent layoffs) they are supposed to be experiencing. [https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/binary/com.epicentric.contentmanagement.servlet.ContentDeliveryServlet/About%2520Us/News%2520and%2520Updates/2011/Week%20Beginning%20March%2006/10%2520FACTS%2520POSTER.pdf](https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/binary/com.epicentric.contentmanagement.servlet.ContentDeliveryServlet/About%2520Us/News%2520and%2520Updates/2011/Week%20Beginning%20March%2006/10%2520FACTS%2520POSTER.pdf) > [@](#): > > Access to care has improved in Massachusetts. A fall 2008 > survey by the Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts Foundation > and the Boston Globe found that more than 90% of individuals > reported having a primary care provider, and only 5% said there > was a time in the past year that they needed medical care, tests > or treatment that they did not get. Access to care is far better in > Massachusetts than nationally. For instance, in 2007, about 20% of > the U.S. population reported not getting or delaying needed medical > care at some point in the previous 12 months. > [@](#): > > Health care reform in Massachusetts has not been a budget > buster. Independent analysis by the Massachusetts Taxpayers > Foundation concurs with state data showing the cost of the law > has been relatively modest, with increased net spending in FY 2010 > accounting for just over 1 percent of the state budget. The state > has held the line on rates in both MassHealth and Commonwealth > Care, with trends far below the experience in the commercial > market. Moreover, nearly half of Commonwealth Care members pay > premiums for their coverage. > Since health reform, more employers are offering coverage > to their employees, bucking the national trend. In 2010, 77% > of Massachusetts employers offered health insurance, up from 69% > in 2001. In contrast the national trend which has seen employer > offerings remain flat from 68% in 2001 to 69% in 2010. The > dominant form of coverage in the state remains private insurance. In > the midst of the worst recession since the Great Depression, public > sector coverage has predictably > increased. But these individuals have > not lost coverage - a strength of > the Massachusetts model. As more > people return to the workforce, > reliance on public sector insurance > will decrease. > [@](#): > > The individual mandate has worked fairly and effectively > to expand coverage in Massachusetts. Some 97% of the > taxpayers are complying with new health reform filing requirements. > Furthermore, the Health Connector’s appeals process, which rules > on hardship exceptions, has been fair to taxpayers, with a 65 percent > approval rate for those who follow through with an appeal. > [@apriori234](#): > > If you can’t defend yourself, give it up. As others pointed out, if you are an expert there should be no trouble pointing at other experts that are supporting what you have claimed so far, or just admit that indeed you can’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-obamacare-causing-layoffs/641685.md?page=7)