# Is offering tea and biscuits to bigots a good idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670 "2013-05-30T00:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/201 "2013-06-11T23:17:59Z")
Tom you are the one who made the proclamations regarding the UK child sex abuse gangs that “nothing in Islam promotes or permits such behavior.” and that it had “nothing to do with Islam”. It’s preposterous of you to then attempt to censor discussion about Mohammed’s own child sex abuse, his rape of Aisha, when his behavior, as recorded in hadith, is so important in Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/202 "2013-06-11T23:23:24Z")
What would evidence to the contrary look like? How about Saudi judges citing the example of Mohammed’s marriage to Aisha when refusing to annul child marriages between rich older men who have essentially purchased children from poor families? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/203 "2013-06-11T23:24:04Z")
I would like to, again, point out that racism is a completely different issue to “Islamophobia”. Using the word racism to describe attacks on an ideology is an attempt not to answer such criticisms but to censor them. It may seem a small issue of semantics but to me it is an extremely important difference. I also feel the need to point out there is a strong case to be made for the Old Testament advocating the offering of one’s own daughters for rape. I quote Genesis 19:1-9: > [@](#): > > 1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; > > 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. > > 3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. > > 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: > > 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. > > 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, > > 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. > > 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. > > 9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. God then, of course, goes on to commit genocide, followed by the murder of his new best buddy’s wife for the breaking of a trivial and arbitrary rule. Many religions can be made to look horrific. The real issue isn’t so much with what is in the scripture but whether or not, or how, it is followed. For many people of different religions, their belief advocates violence. Unfortunately it seems the majority of them are Muslims at the moment. I don’t think you can blame that purely on the Koran or get to the full reasons behind it by reading any scripture, but I don’t think it’s entirely unrelated either. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/204 "2013-06-11T23:30:10Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Tom you are the one who made the proclamations regarding the UK child sex abuse gangs that “nothing in Islam promotes or permits such behavior.” and that it had “nothing to do with Islam”. > > It’s preposterous of you to then attempt to censor discussion about Mohammed’s own child sex abuse, his rape of Aisha, when his behavior, as recorded in hadith, is so important in Islam. Unless these “sex abuse gangs” are _marrying_ their victims with the approval of the girls’ _awliya_, then tomndebb’s statement is completely true. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/205 "2013-06-11T23:40:20Z")
Calling people “racist” who draw attention to these issues is a tried and tested method of trying to shut people up. Here, for example, are the words of Shabir Ahmed, ringleader of one of the Rochdale Islamic paedophile gangs. > **[Rochdale child sex abuse ring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang)** > > The Rochdale child sex abuse ring involved underage teenage girls in Rochdale, Greater Manchester, England. Nine men were convicted of sex trafficking and other offences including rape, trafficking girls for sex and conspiracy to engage in sexual activity with a child in May 2012. This resulted in Greater Manchester Police launching Operation Doublet to investigate further claims of abuse with 19 men so far being convicted. Forty-seven girls were identified as victims of child sexual exploit In... +++Their ring-leader, 59-year-old Shabir Ahmed, claimed the girls were “prostitutes” who had been running a “business empire” and it was all “white lies”. He shouted in court, “Where are the white people? You have only got my kind here.” Shabir Ahmed’s threatening behaviour and calling Judge Gerald Clifton a “racist bastard” resulted in his being banned from the court for the sentencing hearing.+++ I’m happy to report that this disgusting piece of filth got 19 years in prison. Let’s hope he dies in there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/206 "2013-06-11T23:49:25Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > Calling people “racist” who draw attention to these issues is a tried and tested method of trying to shut people up. Here, for example, are the words of Shabir Ahmed, ringleader of one of the Rochdaley Islamic So then when you strongly implied Really Not All That Bright was a “racist” were you trying to “shut him up”. Also, since you essentially accused RNATB of being “a racist” does that mean its fair to compare you to Shabir Ahmed? Or would you say that sometimes it’s appropriate to call people “racist” rather than being a way to shut people up? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/207 "2013-06-11T23:49:45Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Instead of trying to police the content of the discussion to the favor of your losing position, why not try moderating some of the many personal attacks that you consistently allow? You know the stuff that is against the rules, instead of discussions of contentious issues, which this forum is inteneded for. I have done nothing to “police” the content aside from trying to keep this thread from being further hijacked than it already has been. I have noted two specific themes that are really not relevant to the topic and directed both of them to separate threads. As to insults, “your side” has been reported rather more often than that of your opponents. If I see an actual rules violation, I will deal with it. For the most part, while there have been a few toes on the line, everyone has generally backed off before any exchange escalated into a need for Mod action. With luck, it will stay that way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/208 "2013-06-11T23:56:03Z")
**Moderating** Of course, I then immediately see folks treading over the line: **Ibn Warraq** and **Lauren-C** , you will both drop the “racist” feud, now. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16364886&highlight=racist#post16364886](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16364886&highlight=racist#post16364886) [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/209 "2013-06-12T00:00:10Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Tom you are the one who made the proclamations regarding the UK child sex abuse gangs that “nothing in Islam promotes or permits such behavior.” and that it had “nothing to do with Islam”. > > It’s preposterous of you to then attempt to censor discussion about Mohammed’s own child sex abuse, his rape of Aisha, when his behavior, as recorded in hadith, is so important in Islam. Your particular obsession with Aisha is not relevant. Whatever your personal feelings about how old you think she was, the discussion is rape, not marriage–even to someone you believe was too young. Do you have any evidence that any of the “groomers” have chosen to marry their victims? If not, you are simply hijacking this thread to push your own personal agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/210 "2013-06-12T00:07:17Z")
Do you know what happens to child rapists in Saudi Arabia? Pretty much the [same thing](http://www.emirates247.com/news/rapist-of-13-children-seized-in-saudi-2011-06-12-1.402284) that [happens here](http://www.arabnews.com/node/381202). ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/211 "2013-06-12T00:09:07Z")
Well, this discussion is getting nowhere. What I can confidently say is that awareness is increasing among English people, as the attacks on our people grow more frequent, and a national debate will inevitably have to be held about Islam and its continued welcome in our country. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/212 "2013-06-12T01:02:35Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > Calling people “racist” who draw attention to these issues is a tried and tested method of trying to shut people up. Here, for example, are the words of Shabir Ahmed, ringleader of one of the Rochdale Islamic paedophile gangs. > > [Rochdale child sex abuse ring - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang) > > +++Their ring-leader, 59-year-old Shabir Ahmed, claimed the girls were “prostitutes” who had been running a “business empire” and it was all “white lies”. He shouted in court, “Where are the white people? You have only got my kind here.” Shabir Ahmed’s threatening behaviour and calling Judge Gerald Clifton a “racist bastard” resulted in his being banned from the court for the sentencing hearing.+++ > > I’m happy to report that this disgusting piece of filth got 19 years in prison. Let’s hope he dies in there. > [@Lauren-C](#): > > Well, this discussion is getting nowhere. What I can confidently say is that awareness is increasing among English people, as the attacks on our people grow more frequent, and a national debate will inevitably have to be held about Islam and its continued welcome in our country. So, you’re arguing for ethnic cleansing? I really, really hope you’re not arguing that Muslims have some predisposition for rape or murder because that’s hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/213 "2013-06-12T01:16:40Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > Well, this discussion is getting nowhere. What I can confidently say is that awareness is increasing among English people, as the attacks on our people grow more frequent, and a national debate will inevitably have to be held about Islam and its continued welcome in our country. Or the EDL could just [make stuff up](http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/rss/1091-lennon-and-carroll-under-fire-over-sickening-child-gang-rape-claims) and [call for more firebombings of mosques](http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/rss/1115-edl-call-for-more-mosque-firebombings-during-friday-prayers) like the [one they carried out a month ago](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/05/mosque-set-on-fire-edl-attack_n_3389136.html) (which they tried to accuse the Muslims who used the mosque of [doing it to themselves](http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/rss/1116-english-defence-league-blame-muslims-for-mosque-firebomb-attack)). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/214 "2013-06-12T01:32:19Z")
Once again I can’t note how depressing it is that a thread about some British Muslims giving tea and biscuits has been so thoroughly hijacked due to Islamophobia that the last 4 pages have consisted of arguments about Muslims raping “white women”\*. I’d like to think if this had been about members of a black church giving milk and cookies to some white supremacists we wouldn’t spend four pages debating blacks raping white women and people wondering aloud if blacks “will be welcome” in America. \*. Tom, I understand and sympathize with your ruling and will abide by it, but I can’t help but notice that repeatedly the victims of these supposedly rampaging rape gangs have been described almost exclusively not in nationalistic, cultural, or religious terms(non-Muslim, British etc.) but racial terms(white). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/215 "2013-06-12T01:39:07Z")
Tom, I’m going to apologize for the part of my last comment where I brought up the references to “white women”. It was pointed out to me that you already noted that people were specifically using racial rather than religious or nationalist categories to discuss the victims. I wouldn’t have mentioned that had I seen you’d already noted that. Apologies. Also, at this point I think the thread should be moved to the pit since its completely been hijacked from the OP and already seems to have turned into rants. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/216 "2013-06-12T01:42:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > \*. Tom, I understand and sympathize with your ruling and will abide by it, but I can’t help but notice that repeatedly the victims of these supposedly rampaging rape gangs have been described almost exclusively not in nationalistic, cultural, or religious terms(non-Muslim, British etc.) but racial terms(white). I blame the Muslim member of Simon Cowell’s manufactured bubblegum-pop boy band One Direction who is [corrupting our pure, innocent daughters with his pernicious Muhammedan wailings](http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50331/mega-pop-star-pimping-islam-on-your-daughters/). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/217 "2013-06-12T02:03:33Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > I blame the Muslim member of Simon Cowell’s manufactured bubblegum-pop boy band One Direction who is [corrupting our pure, innocent daughters with his pernicious Muhammedan wailings](http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50331/mega-pop-star-pimping-islam-on-your-daughters/). Ah yes, Debbie Schlussel, the Jewish version of Ann Coulter. I’d forgotten what a fun she is. Why Fox News hasn’t discovered her yet I’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/218 "2013-06-12T02:52:44Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > Do you know what happens to child rapists in Saudi Arabia? Pretty much the [same thing](http://www.emirates247.com/news/rapist-of-13-children-seized-in-saudi-2011-06-12-1.402284) that [happens here](http://www.arabnews.com/node/381202). Child rapists are protected in Saudi Arabia if the child is paid for and a religious ceremony is conducted. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/219 "2013-06-12T02:58:56Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Child rapists are protected in Saudi Arabia if the child is paid for and a religious ceremony is conducted. Actually, they’re [sentenced to death](http://www.emirates247.com/crime/region/crime-serial-rapist-sentenced-to-death-in-saudi-2013-04-30-1.504610) and [executed by beheading](http://www.emirates247.com/crime/region/beheaded-man-raped-8-yr-old-for-3-years-2012-06-21-1.463926). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/220 "2013-06-12T03:00:25Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > I blame the Muslim member of Simon Cowell’s manufactured bubblegum-pop boy band One Direction who is [corrupting our pure, innocent daughters with his pernicious Muhammedan wailings](http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50331/mega-pop-star-pimping-islam-on-your-daughters/). Ah, that was a fun read. And by fun, I meant “insane”. Seriously, look at this asinine statements from that link: > [@](#): > > That’s in addition to his Arabic tattoos and frequent donning of the keffiyeh, the official garb of Islamic terrorism. So the dude wears the clothing that millions of other people do, clothing that is rooted in the necessity for protection from the sun in the desert, and that makes him a terrorist? And who, by the way, decided that Islamic terrorism has an official garb? Saying that the keffiyeh is the official garb of terrorism is like saying that the United Kingdom’s armed forces are a bunch of transvestites because of the uniform kilt. Yet another inane statement from that link: > [@](#): > > He not only tweeted about fasting for Ramadan, but told fans that allah is the only god and that only Mohammed is G-d’s true prophet. So what? Does the author rant about Jewish and Christian artists reciting in their synagogues and churches that there is no God but God? There is simply no difference here, other than that the target of this bigoted attack happens to be Muslim. More from the link: > [@](#): > > “La ila ha ill lalla ho muhammed door rasoolalah,” is the militant statement Muslims say in their prayers every day, meaning, “There is no god but allah and Mohammed is the prophet of G-d.” Militant? Is he serious?! Militant? So, this clown writing this trash has now accused every single Muslim throughout history of being a militant. But, wait a moment. What about Jews and Christians? Their scriptures advocate genocide, child murder, and even self-mutilation. Well, they do to the ignorant. And here’s my favorite part from that link: > [@](#): > > The phrase is meant to say that only Islam is the true religion and only Mohammed is a real prophet of G-d. It’s part of the “Shehadah,” the Muslim oath of martyrdom that comprises conversion to Islam. Oath of martydom? Wow. That’s a nice bit of sleight-of-hand. I bet one could easily describe any of Christendom’s creeds and even the Lord’s Prayer in an equally offensive and incorrect manner. And just for fun, one could probably also use a derogatory racial term like that clown did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670.md?page=12)