# Is offering tea and biscuits to bigots a good idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670 "2013-05-30T00:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/301 "2013-06-14T23:13:56Z")
So, I guess we should argue that the “jumping in” process of various LA street gangs, most notably the Bloods and the Crips, where they savage beat the teenage initiates is due to Christianity since most of the members are African-Americans from a Christian background and the Bible explicitly endorses what Hank would call child abuse, going so far as to say that fathers who don’t beat their children don’t love him. And, of course this was legitimized by Jesus, whom Christians view as both Gid and the greatest man that ever lived declared that people had to obey “every jot and tittle” of the law. Somehow, I suspect that were I to argue this people would start laughing their asses off and my suggestion would be considered a ludicrous hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/302 "2013-06-14T23:27:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, I guess we should argue that the “jumping in” process of various LA street gangs, most notably the Bloods and the Crips, where they savage beat the teenage initiates is due to Christianity That’s not a good comparison, because no one is making that argument here regarding Islam. The claim was that “nothing in Islam promotes or condones this”. The apt comparison would be if someone, during a discussion about LA street gangs, were to argue that “nothing in Christianity” condones or promotes violent behavior. This would be just as obviously wrong as the ridiculous “nothing in Islam” slogans repeated in this thread, because of all the smiting that goes on in the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/303 "2013-06-14T23:34:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, I guess we should argue that the “jumping in” process of various LA street gangs, most notably the Bloods and the Crips, where they savage beat the teenage initiates is due to Christianity since most of the members are African-Americans from a Christian background Also: considering that the social and economic conditions that lead these people to form and join these gangs is often traceable to the biblically justified enslavement of their ancestors, Christianity does have something to do with this violence. It might be hard to untangle, but it’s all up in there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/304 "2013-06-14T23:56:25Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > How can A’isha simultaneously narrate that Muhammad beat her, and that he never beat a woman.. > > I look forward to how you deal with the “parts of the source texts” that say A’isha reported that Muhammad never beat a woman. My guess I’d he’ll simply ignore them just as he repeatedly ignored the numerous ahadith I pointed to relating Aisha’s age(I.E. her birth in reference to Muhammad hearing the call, her sister, her participation in certain battles etc.) as well as how long after her death the stories were first collected. I actually repeated asked him how he could be so certain of her age despite all the contradictory stories but he refused to give any non-evasive answers. I was actually tempted to ask him how he could be so certain of her age when three of the most esteemed Islamic historians, Wansbrough, Crone and Cook don’t think we can be certain of anything about Muhammad since most of the “evidence” can charitably be described as “rumors”. However I decided doing so would be pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/305 "2013-06-15T00:31:21Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > So some translations say she was struck and caused pain, and others that she was shoved. [Lane’s Lexicon](http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/) says it means to be “pushed away”, specifically on account of one’s moral failings. > [@](#): > > The context makes it clear that it was in anger. This normalizes violence against women and children. Actually, the context makes it clear that it’s _not_ in anger, but in admonishment for telling a lie for no reason whatsoever - the sentence right after the one you quoted says, “and then [he] said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?”, and proceeds to tell her what he was doing when he went outside and the message he had received from Gabriel. The whole point of the _hadith_ is that message, which is the proper way to say prayers for the dead when entering a graveyard, and has zip to do with the way wives should be treated (or even how Muhammad treated his wives), so no, it does not in any way, shape or form “normalize violence against women and children”. That’s why the _hadith_ is in the chapter entitled “What is to be said when entering the graveyard and supplicating for its occupants” in the book entitled “The Book of Prayer - Funerals”, and not in a chapter about how to treat wives or women. > [@](#): > > Which is what men are commanded to do to their disobedient wives in verse 4:34 of the Koran. After admonishing them and then denying them sexual relations, yes. Which only goes to show how your concern is obviously just to demonize Islam in general and Muhammad in particular, since that _really_ has nothing to do with what the gangs in the UK did, since their victims were not their wives, were not admonished, and definitely weren’t denied sexual relations. > [@](#): > > Because she was not completely consistent with all of her recollections? Because she was telling people what they wanted to hear, if that is what she actually said? If your standard is that religious texts have to be internally consistent you are going to be disappointed by all of them, not just the Muslim ones. If you’re trying to cite the authority of A’isha through the _ahadith_ in Sahih Muslim to back up your nonsense claims about Islam supporting the behavior of the rape gangs in the UK, it’s kind of disingenuous to start complaining about their unreliability the instant you’re shown a _hadith_ of A’isha’s as narrated in Sahih Muslim that contradicts your claims. The plain fact is (to use your own words), according to _hadith_ widely accepted among Muslims as having the highest levels of authenticity, the prophet of Islam (whose behavior, as an example of perfect moral behavior, is a source for the way of life Muslims believe that Islam proscribes) _never struck or beat any of his wives._ > [@](#): > > This line of reasoning is only possible if you buy into the perverted notion that sex between a fifty three year old man and a nine year old girl can somehow be legitimized by the abusers claims that the victim had been given to him by God, in a dream, and that she was his wife. You certainly seem to think that sex between an adult man of _any_ age and a fourteen year old girl can be legitimized by a church ceremony and a courthouse clerk’s signature, so you can go ahead and drop your hypocritical nonsense about A’isha’s marriage to Muhammad having anything to do with what happened in the UK. > [@](#): > > Comparing the EDL to the KKK is an imperfect comparison, because the EDL is not explicitly racist at this point, To use your own words again, [wrong](https://twitter.com/Official_EDL/status/279375733971890176). Unless, of course, you know of some non-explicitly racist reason to tweet a picture of a crying blond haired blue eyed child with the caption “My race is dying out in my own COUNTRY!! STOP IMMIGRATION NOW!!” Because I sure don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/306 "2013-06-15T00:50:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > My guess I’d he’ll simply ignore them just as he repeatedly ignored the numerous ahadith I pointed to relating Aisha’s age(I.E. her birth in reference to Muhammad hearing the call, her sister, her participation in certain battles etc.) as well as how long after her death the stories were first collected. And who it was that was collecting those stories about her. I just finished D. A. Spellberg’s excellent book about this, [Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: The Legacy of Aʼisha Bint Abi Bakr](http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Gender-Islamic-Past-Spellberg/dp/0231079990/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1371256926&sr=8-5&keywords=gender+and+politics+islam). > [@](#): > > I actually repeated asked him how he could be so certain of her age despite all the contradictory stories but he refused to give any non-evasive answers. Perhaps he could also explain his certainty to Muslim feminist organizations, such as Malaysia’s Sisters in Islam, which [take note of those very same contradictory stories](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.997.41). I’m sure they’d _love_ to hear all about how he knows more about Islam than they do. > [@](#): > > I was actually tempted to ask him how he could be so certain of her age when three of the most esteemed Islamic historians, Wansbrough, Crone and Cook don’t think we can be certain of anything about Muhammad since most of the “evidence” can charitably be described as “rumors”. > > However I decided doing so would be pointless. I agree. Though I think Wansbrough is a lot more trustworthy in this regard than Crone and Cook. _Hagarism_ was such a turgid mess I could barely finish it! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/307 "2013-06-15T01:03:44Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > And who it was that was collecting those stories about her. I just finished D. A. Spellberg’s excellent book about this, [Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: > The Legacy of Aʼisha Bint Abi Bakr](http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Gender-Islamic-Past-Spellberg/dp/0231079990/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1371256926&sr=8-5&keywords=gender+and+politics+islam). > > Perhaps he could also explain his certainty to Muslim feminist organizations, such as Malaysia’s Sisters in Islam, which [take note of those very same contradictory stories](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.997.41). > > I’m sure they’d _love_ to hear all about how he knows more about Islam than they do. > > I agree. > > Though I think Wansbrough is a lot more trustworthy in this regard than Crone and Cook. _Hagarism_ was such a turgid mess I could barely finish it! And Wansbrough, who for those who don’t know was one of the most respected Orientalists in the US, thinks Muhammad may never have even existed. Admittedly that’s hardly the common opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/308 "2013-06-15T01:12:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And Wansbrough, who for those who don’t know was one of the most respected Orientalists in the US, thinks Muhammad may never have even existed. > > Admittedly that’s hardly the common opinion. Yeah, I’m not exactly convinced of that myself (especially given the presumed age of the Sana’a Manuscript, as well as the work of John Burton, who goes pretty far in the \*other \*direction regarding Muhammad and the Qur’an), but his work on the potential derivation and evolution of the Qur’anic text is both exhaustive and immensely valuable. That’s why I cited his _Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation_ upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/309 "2013-06-15T21:04:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > My guess I’d he’ll simply ignore them just as he repeatedly ignored the numerous ahadith I pointed to relating Aisha’s age(I.E. her birth in reference to Muhammad hearing the call, her sister, her participation in certain battles etc.) as well as how long after her death the stories were first collected. Bullshit. Stop writing fiction in this forum. For about the fifteenth fucking time, Poster Who Ironically Calls Himself Ibn Warraq: This revisionist theory that you keep advancing is a modern reaction to Western criticism of Mohammed, and is widely rejected among Muslims. It tries to refute multiple positive claims in Aisha’s own voice with oblique calculations and supposed inconsistencies. > [@](#): > > I actually repeated asked him how he could be so certain of her age despite all the contradictory stories but he refused to give any non-evasive answers. Bullshit. Stop your stupid crusade against comments critical of Islam dude. Like I already told you all the other times you tried this, I never said I was “certain of her age”. My claim, that you despise so much, but that you cannot refute because it is true, is that according to mainstream and traditional Islamic sources she was nine when Mohammed, at fifty three, had sex with her. Not that no one anywhere has any other interpretation, or about what actual evidence there is for anything in the Koran or any of the collections of hadith, or any other religion. My claim is about what has traditionally been accepted, and what is now accepted, among mainstream Islam. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/310 "2013-06-21T20:19:29Z")
Going back to the o.p. I think that it was an excellent idea. Many bigots, who think that they hate a a particular skin colour or religion purely because they’re different, or because of what other bigots have said to them (and have dehumanised them on that basis ) are not only taken aback when the subjects of their hatred interact with them like this, but see them as just “people” not that different from themselves. I recall shortly after the soldiers murder, a group of Asians in I think , Birmingham, very publicly collecting money for soldiers charities, something that must have changed the impressions of people in parts of the U.K. where the locals were unlikely to even see Asian Britains, let alone interact with them. What you don’t know, you fear, and what you fear you hate. And lets face it, bigots by their very nature are highly unlikely to take this step themselves. I can’t see any extreme right wing party inviting Muslims to pop in party headquarters and have a chat with them over a cup of tea, while they explained why they didn’t like Muslims. I might even develop a modicum of respect for them if they did this, rather then the opinion I hold, and have held of them for my life up until now, and probably for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/311 "2013-06-24T15:36:48Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I can’t see any extreme right wing party inviting Muslims to pop in party headquarters and have a chat with them over a cup of tea, while they explained why they didn’t like Muslims. > > I might even develop a modicum of respect for them if they did this, rather then the opinion I hold, and have held of them for my life up until now, and probably for the foreseeable future. They’re too busy [attempting to carry out terrorist bombings](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-23019142). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/312 "2013-06-24T16:48:20Z")
Have any EDL members _accepted_ tea and/or biscuits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670.md?page=15)