# Is offering tea and biscuits to bigots a good idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670 "2013-05-30T00:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/141 "2013-06-10T05:52:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [Yeah, you’d never see Christians doing that sort of thing.](http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/georgia-homophobic-violence-mars-tbilisi-pride-event-2013-05-17) I’m sorry, how many people were killed? Zero? Was there a Fatwa made against anybody? No. Did someone half way round the world go crazy over it? No. Did the government intervene. Yes. I think it’s odd you would choose this as a comparison given how gay people are treated in Muslim countries. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/142 "2013-06-10T09:04:58Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Magiver** , you said that cites had been asked for and given. You never did give me a cite that the destruction of the pyramids was an issue shortly after 9/11. That would be appreciated. > > **Lauren-C** : Your comparison of the things that Muslims have had in common with Nazis lists things that they also have in common with the Brits and Americans. And you cited for only one of the Muslim-Nazi coroborators. You know the USA also had a lot of people that supported the Nazis, including Charles Lindbergh. That really doesn’t reflect on the religious beliefs of people who shared Lindbergh’s religious (or non-religious) views. > > You mentioned that Islam is cult-like. A cult with over two billion members? > > You said that the gang rapes were “legion.” That word refers to large groups and doesn’t seem to apply in the examples that you gave from Wiki. Out of the six gangs you mentioned, only 51 people total were convicted and that wasn’t always for rape. That is an average of less than 9 members per group. The second listing says “needs additional citations.” These sources are not particularly reliable. > > You add that protecting your people is infinitely more important that political correctness. When you say “your people” are you including Moslems too? Or do they deserve to be villified for what a very small percentage has done? > > A couple of times you mentioned “political correctness.” I live in a largely Muslim neighborhood. It was one of the five neighborhoods in the United States where Iraqis got to vote for their President. It was, indeed, a wonderful day in the neighborhood. Who here has used “political correctness” in discussing these issues? I think it’s possible that you may be trying to use that phrase as an excuse for posting vile comments. > > My signature, which I’ve had for a long time and is not directed at you personally, but describes my thinking about most who used that “label” inappropriately: > _“You may take the expression “politically correct,” write it on a piece of paper, set it ablaze and place it far, far inside your sweetly rounded, cherubic bum.”_ Is there an upper limit on the membership numbers for cults? In any case, even if there is, I said “cult-like”. Other articles cited, from the BBC and Telegraph for example, mentioned that 55 more gangs are currently being investigated, and that 2,400 children had been confirmed as victims in a 14-month period. You say the average number of members in gangs is 9, as if this somehow makes it less bad. I do not regard Muslims as belonging to the category of “my people” but this doesn’t mean I believe all Muslims are evil, because there are surely some Muslims who disagree with the teachings of Muhammad. I can criticise an ideology without criticising every individual follower of it, many of whom are better classed as victims rather than perpetrators, such as the women and children of the Muslim world, and many others such as homosexuals, those who are members of different sects, and so many other groups. If it is “vile” to point out these things, then it is a small price to pay to avoid the dishonour of keeping silent. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/143 "2013-06-10T10:36:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > wow, nice slight of hand there. It took weeks for the protests to organize and therefore they don’t count. > > again, nice slight of hand, it doesn’t count if a religious leader stirs the pot. > > yes, it’s certainly possible to get some people to riot, blow up airplanes, malls, ships, buildings and whatever mayhem seems appropriate to the cause. No sleight of hand. You claimed that there were actions that one could not take without provoking “chaos.” The reality is that there are places in the world where poverty and other factors make people more liable to riot and religion is one thing that can be used to provoke political disturbances. There was no spontaneous outrage encompassing the Muslim world when the cartoons were published, the idiotic movie was filmed, or Rushdie published his novel. (And there have been many insulting cartoons of Mohammed over the years that provoked no “chaos.”) Instead, there were specific, deliberate actions taken to provoke riots (that only occurred in places where riots already tend to occur for other reasons). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/144 "2013-06-10T11:40:28Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > I do not regard Muslims as belonging to the category of “my people” but this doesn’t mean I believe all Muslims are evil, because there are surely some Muslims who disagree with the teachings of Muhammad. I can criticise an ideology without criticising every individual follower of it, many of whom are better classed as victims rather than perpetrators, such as the women and children of the Muslim world, and many others such as homosexuals, those who are members of different sects, and so many other groups. So basically Muslims are evil except for the majority of Muslims. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/145 "2013-06-10T11:59:33Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [Yeah, you’d never see Christians doing that sort of thing.](http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/georgia-homophobic-violence-mars-tbilisi-pride-event-2013-05-17) Christianity/Islam, clearly they’re both just religions of hate. You need a nice peaceful religion, like Buddhism! [Oh.](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/myanmar/130322/myanmar-anti-muslim-religious-riots-Meikhtila) ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/146 "2013-06-10T12:00:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So basically Muslims are evil except for the majority of Muslims. Got it. Is this the only way you can attempt to refute my position, by accusing me of saying things that I never did? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/147 "2013-06-10T12:06:42Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > Is this the only way you can attempt to refute my position, by accusing me of saying things that I never did? I’m not refuting your points, I’m mocking them. You start from the point of “Islam is evil” and then start naming exclusions, rather than the more sensible approach of identifying those within Islam who are evil and leaving the rest alone. Yours is a ridiculous approach that is riddled with question begging. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/148 "2013-06-10T12:20:59Z")
Some people here don’t seem to be able to separate the idea of “Islam” and “Muslims”. To use a tired, but rather convenient, analogy: Most of us can probably agree we would refer to Nazism as a bad thing. Does that mean we have to hate all those in Nazi Germany? No. Does the fact that not all Germans acted according to all the teachings of Nazism mean we should ignore the influence of the ideology while we bring out excuses of economic hardship, weak governments and bullying by the French? No. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/149 "2013-06-10T12:48:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No sleight of hand. You claimed that there were actions that one could not take without provoking “chaos.” The reality is that there are places in the world where poverty and other factors make people more liable to riot and religion is one thing that can be used to provoke political disturbances. > There was no spontaneous outrage encompassing the Muslim world when the cartoons were published, the idiotic movie was filmed, or Rushdie published his novel. (And there have been many insulting cartoons of Mohammed over the years that provoked no “chaos.”) Instead, there were specific, deliberate actions taken to provoke riots (that only occurred in places where riots already tend to occur for other reasons). You literally attached qualifiers to the events and then hand-waved them away as not relevant when in fact they are relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/150 "2013-06-10T12:52:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This is truly one of the most bizarre statements I’ve ever seen on SDMB. There have been numerous movies made featuring Muslim evildoers and Muslim terrorists without inspiring world-wide riots or “utter chaos.” > > The reaction to “The Muhammad Cartoons” were the exception not the rule. Showing a muslim as an evildoer is not the same as crossing the religion (as in blasphemic). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/151 "2013-06-10T13:44:57Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > Hitler was an ally of Muslims, and many Muslims have expressed admiration for Hitler. Hitler was also an ally of [Britons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Union_of_Fascists). What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/152 "2013-06-10T21:02:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You literally attached qualifiers to the events and then hand-waved them away as not relevant when in fact they are relevant. No. You cherry picked events, carefully excluding the situations and context. I simply supplied the context that you omitted. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/153 "2013-06-10T23:23:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m not refuting your points, I’m mocking them. You start from the point of “Islam is evil” and then start naming exclusions, rather than the more sensible approach of identifying those within Islam who are evil and leaving the rest alone. Yours is a ridiculous approach that is riddled with question begging. An intersting point. How do we distinguish those within Islam who are evil, and those which aren’t? Given that Muslims, by definition, are followers of Muhammad and the Koran? ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/154 "2013-06-10T23:25:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hitler was also an ally of [Britons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Union_of_Fascists). What’s your point? You seem to be confusing a race (Britons) with an ideology (Islam). Are you a racist? ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/155 "2013-06-10T23:36:46Z")
I also note, with interest, that the starter of this thread refused to address any of my points as soon as I started posting news articles and reports confirming the Islamic grooming and sexual exploitation of thousands of underage white girls in the UK. He described the EDL as racist thugs, but in fact, as I have shown, the EDL and others like them have legitimate reasons for very grave concern about the presence of Islam in the UK. At the very least, to dismiss such people as “racist thugs” will no longer serve to address the problem. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/156 "2013-06-10T23:51:22Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > He described the EDL as racist thugs, but in fact, as I have shown, the EDL and others like them have legitimate reasons for very grave concern about the presence of Islam in the UK. Not really. You have demonstrated a certain level of xenophobia with some rather absurd claims about Islam and Muslims, but you have not even come close to demonstrating why anyone has “legitimate” concerns about “the presence of Islam in the UK.” (And claiming to be concerned to protect “white” girls does nothing to argue that there is not a strong strain of racism running through your text.) ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/157 "2013-06-10T23:59:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not really. You have demonstrated a certain level of xenophobia with some rather absurd claims about Islam and Muslims, but you have not even come close to demonstrating why anyone has “legitimate” concerns about “the presence of Islam in the UK.” > > (And claiming to be concerned to protect “white” girls does nothing to argue that there is not a strong strain of racism running through your text.) If you don’t regard the reports and articles I posted as grounds for legitimate concern, then I don’t know what will. Since the overwhelming majority of the victims are white, then this, on top of being organised paedophile gang rape on a massive scale, is also a race crime. Or is it not possible to be racist against whites? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/158 "2013-06-11T00:46:46Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > I also note, with interest, that the starter of this thread refused to address any of my points as soon as I started posting news articles and reports confirming the Islamic grooming and sexual exploitation of thousands of underage white girls in the UK. > > He described the EDL as racist thugs, but in fact, as I have shown, the EDL and others like them have legitimate reasons for very grave concern about the presence of Islam in the UK. At the very least, to dismiss such people as “racist thugs” will no longer serve to address the problem. It’s always interesting to note the difference between what people think they’ve demonstrated, and what they’ve actually demonstrated. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/159 "2013-06-11T01:28:43Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > If you don’t regard the reports and articles I posted as grounds for legitimate concern, then I don’t know what will. The legitimate reports, (as opposed to the ones you initially posted), provide a reason for genuine concern that young men who enter Britain from another culture in which there is stricter sexual behavior required of men and women will see the less strict behavior of young women in Britain as “loose.” Such young men, when unemployed and uneducated regarding the mores of their new country have demonstrated the sad behavior of treating young women as sluts. Nothing in Islam promotes or permits such behavior. A responsible approach would be for the British social services, police, and immigrant community leaders to work together make sure that the young men are made aware of the local standards, to try to break up the gangs, and to make sure that the police respond adequately when a young woman comes to them with a report that she was molested. None of those actions require that anyone go about making ignorant and inflammatory comments about Islam. > [@Lauren-C](#): > > Since the overwhelming majority of the victims are white, then this, on top of being organised paedophile gang rape on a massive scale, is also a race crime. Or is it not possible to be racist against whites? The victims tend to be white because it tends to be local “white” girls who are out in casual dress, not conforming to the strict standards of behavior expected of the young women from the same immigrant community. This does NOT mean that the victims are “asking for it.” It is simply a recognition that they are more likely to engage in behaviors that are, under the circumstances, risky regarding the young immigrant men. They are not selected because they are white. They are selected because they are available and the immigrant community tends to make their young women unavailable. Nothing to do with “race,” and, again, nothing to do with Islam. Beyond that, someone should be looking into why the behavior of “grooming” has jumped out of the specific immigrant communities where it began and spread to other locations involving young men who are not Pakistani/Kashmiri immigrants. Running about making silly, hateful comments about Islam is more likely to provide a false sense of direction to any investigations into and efforts to curb the problem outside the original immigrant communities. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670/160 "2013-06-11T04:57:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Nothing in Islam promotes or permits such behavior. Wrong. The Koran [specifically](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.024) legitimizes sex slavery.[And of course](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16204133&postcount=250) Mohammed himself groomed and raped a nine year old girl when he was in his fifties, according to mainstream Islamic belief. They EDL should have tea and crumpets with Muslims and discuss their similarities. They both follow a rotten, hateful, dangerous ideology, and they both have their apologists who try to portray the ideologies as peaceful and compatible with modernity, and the hangers on naive enough to buy into the re-branding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-offering-tea-and-biscuits-to-bigots-a-good-idea/659670.md?page=9)