# Is "Old Money" the same as 'upper class'? I thought money doesn't = class
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 3, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387 "2011-03-03T18:35:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)
#### Post date: [March 8, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/61 "2011-03-08T01:50:08Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#):
>
> You will never, never see the “Real Housewifes of Westport” though. (If we do, the republic is doomed - DOOMED! And non-profit board meetings are actually pretty dull. They would have to spend a year to get an hour’s worth of footage.)
Well, you might see “Real Housewives of Westport.” Who knows. Westport can get pretty flashy. They even let actors live there. But you’ll _never_ see “Real Housewives of Southport.”
---
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [March 8, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/62 "2011-03-08T02:31:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> Nitpick: The Gateses …
:rolleyes:
Yes, I suppose if you prefer the ‘bourgeois’ spelling.
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> [$2.5 B is] Not enough to establish the sort of intergenerational wealth its going to take to get through four or five generations - unless the generations are SMALL and continue to grow the wealth. Especially if the generations continue the tradition of philanthropy.
Do you know how many billionares there are on the entire planet? Probably less than a thousand. That’s more money than the GDP of the island of Aruba. How long that wealth lasts is largely dependent on how long they want it to last. Managed properly, that sort of wealth could last forever (like the Rockefellers).
There is more to being a “great family name” than money. Sure, having lots of philanthropies and buildings on college campuses with your name on them helps. Free of the constraits of working a job you need and having access to the best education, many can pursue prominant careers. The Kennedys went into law and politics. Maria Shriver (Kennedy Shriver) and Anderson Cooper (Vanderbuilt) chose broadcasting.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [March 8, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/63 "2011-03-08T02:37:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> :rolleyes:
> Yes, I suppose if you prefer the ‘bourgeois’ spelling.
That actually cracked me up.
---
### Author:  [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/64 "2011-03-09T12:53:48Z")
Your family has had money for hundreds of years (and you own land), you, your grandparents , parents and children have all, or will, go to expensive schools .
(Often living as boarders)
Ditto for Ivy league/Oxbridge universities.
You enjoy art, classical music, ballet and opera.
You probably speak a foreign language.
You wear tailor made clothes, probably Saville Row, likewise shoes.
You know wines, etiquette, and have a distinctive ( Well spoken )accent.
You NEVER EVER boast about how much money you’ve got/power/land/famous contempories/ancestors.
You have high level connections in business and politics.
You tend to avoid, and certainly never seek out media publicity.
Your friends and social circle are similar to yourself.
You are into equestrian sports, either as a spectator or a participant.
You are always polite to those of lower status.
You are almost certainly old money/upper class.
You earn an absaloute fortune from being a celebrity or soccer player.
You were brought up on a council estate and you have children with "original "names like Ocean or Island, Rainbow or the like.
You have a working class accent.
You get rowdily drunk in public with your teammates/fellow celebrities.
You wear designer label clothes and accesories.
You follow the latest fashions in where to go, who to be seen with.
You demand special attention when you go to a hotel/club etc. or its “Don’t you know who I am ?”
You enjoy Soaps, reality shows and tabloid newspapers.
You seek out media attention i.e. being photographed, interviews etc.
You may well be the nicest and most intelligent person around, but sorry you’re just working class with money.
Keep a hold of your money and give it a few hundred years though…
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/65 "2011-03-09T17:18:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Not really sure about your point. You basically just listed a bunch of famous wealthy families. Fact is if you look at Forbes list of the top wealthiest Americans, a significant number are self made men. 50 years from now they will be saying the same thing about other Old Money families like the
> Bezos
> Beckhams
> Bloombergs
> Buffets
> Carters (AKA Jay-Zs)
> Gates
> Paulsons
> Sandlers
> Woods
> Zuckerburgs
The point is the old money looks down on thew nuveau riche. They new money people have less status . They are barging into the haunts of the good old rich boys.
I am not sure how long it takes for a family to get to old rich status. When Kennedy was running for pres. he was still new money. Many of the rich saw politics as beneath them. But since Kennedy ,they seemed to have changed their minds. The Bush’s decided to get involved for example.
Yes if that group of rich people keep their money long enough they will get to be old money someday. That is if they do not call too much attention to themselves and their outrageous love of power and possessions.
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/66 "2011-03-09T22:01:52Z")
> [@Burton](#):
>
> Class is pretty much a meaningless distinction in America. Money is all that matters. Old money or new money it all spends the same. The biggest class differential today is education. I think it matters less where you receive your education too these days.
I disagree. Pedigree still matters to those who have it. Wealth is not the only determinant of status in America, not yet at least.
> [@](#):
>
> Are there still some very wealthy families in America who see their wealth as a call to public service and stewardship of American culture? Maybe. I grew up on the Main Line outside Philadelphia where there was a considerable concentration of wealth and power from the earliest days of the country though the 19th century industrial boom and some of those families are still there.
I think main line is exactly what people mean by old money.
Old Money is not concerned with making money, they are far more concerned with preserving wealth (they are far more likely to invest in treasuries than equities).
---
### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/67 "2011-03-09T23:19:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> The point is the old money looks down on thew nuveau riche. They new money people have less status . They are barging into the haunts of the good old rich boys.
Hardly. The nouveau riche are frequently over-impressed with their newfound wealth and tend to be showy, pushy, arrogant, and, by old money standards, vulgar. To people who grow up with money, it is nothing particularly special - it has always been there and it seems as normal to them as breathing. So they tend not to be so impressed with themselves for having it. And like **Lust4Life** said, they are almost invariably polite to people who have less. They are thankful for the money and lives that they have, but they don’t generally tend to think of themselves as superior to everyone else, whereas the nouveau riche are often haughty, rude and pushy to underlings and sales people in shops and so forth and generally comport themselves as if they were better than the hoi polloi.
When I was young I worked for my father’s business for a while and had ample opportunity to interact with people from both groups. The old money people were a delight, welcoming you into their homes, offering you a drink and seeming to be genuinely interested in you as a person, whereas the new money people were almost invariably superior, dismissive, willful and difficult to deal with.
There was a considerable difference in the way their children behaved also, at least by the time they hit their teens. New money kids tended to parrot their parents’ snobby behavior and were much more prone to drunkeness, rowdiness, reckless driving and getting into trouble than were the children of old money families, who tended to be more mature, manerly and adult-acting than their new money counterparts.
It takes a while for families with money to acheive the educational and societal levels of behavior that are typical for old money families, and that is why it often takes generations to become old money. Old money society is indeed exclusive, but not simply because it doesn’t want anyone to intrude upon its haunts.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/68 "2011-03-09T23:55:35Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> Actually, probably not. The Gates don’t intend to leave their children really wealthy (they won’t starve, but they won’t be left intergenerational income).
If the kids pass the habit on, the descendants will get poorer and poorer and eventually one will sell his soul to the Devil!
Y’know, the ninth Gates.
---
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/69 "2011-03-10T00:03:40Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#):
>
> Your family has had money for hundreds of years (and you own land), you, your grandparents , parents and children have all, or will, go to expensive schools .
> (Often living as boarders)
Well, that’s REALLY Old Money if the family has been around for hundreds of years.
But a lot of what you described sounds like the stereotypes of what people think of for those different classes. Nouveau riche tends to emulate the stereotypical affectations of the rich. We had a lot of rich kids at my college. They didn’t walk around decked out like Chuck Bass and Blair Waldorf (Heck even those Gossip Girl names are “rich people stereotypes”. I can’t wait for next season when they introduce Margo Abercrombie and Chet and Tylor Brooks (brothers).)
Like any group of people, I don’t think you can stereotype. Paris Hilton is technically “Old Money” (great grandfather started Hilton Hotels obviously). She’s about as gaudy as they come.
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/70 "2011-03-10T00:12:59Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> And that is very difficult. It isn’t just the “one generation can screw it up” but because generations tend to grow you split the wealth. Its very hard (without something like primogeniture) to maintain wealth when each generation splits it…unless the generations themselves increase the wealth.
They try not to dilute it too much by marrying other rich people.
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/71 "2011-03-10T00:17:20Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> Not enough to establish the sort of intergenerational wealth its going to take to get through four or five generations - unless the generations are SMALL and continue to grow the wealth. Especially if the generations continue the tradition of philanthropy.
>
> One of my friends is the great grandson of one of the richest ten people at the turn of the century. With 60 odd decedents, inflation, a culture of philanthropy and only some people having good money management skills, his generation won’t starve - and have college funds - but they aren’t independently wealthy unless the generations between them and great grandpa grew their wealth.
>
> Besides, its Gates and Buffets stated goal not to leave their children intergenerational wealth. If they have to give away 98% of it to get to some sort of “this is plenty for my kids” point, I suspect they will.
They are going to have family foundations. If the foundation is large enough, merely exercising control over a charitable family foundation of a hundred billion dollars is going to make you important if only because you have to invest that money.
---
### Author:  [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/72 "2011-03-10T02:28:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Not really sure about your point. You basically just listed a bunch of famous wealthy families. Fact is if you look at Forbes list of the top wealthiest Americans, a significant number are self made men. 50 years from now they will be saying the same thing about other Old Money families like the
> Bezos
> Beckhams
> Bloombergs
> Buffets
> Carters (AKA Jay-Zs)
> Gates
> Paulsons
> Sandlers
> Woods
> Zuckerburgs
Aren’t Buffet and Gates leaving their children “enough to do anything, but not enough to do nothing,” or something like that? Assuming the Gates Foundation is still around, but the future Gates children don’t have direct access to the wealth, how will that affect their old/new money status?
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/73 "2011-03-10T03:42:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#):
>
> Hardly. The nouveau riche are frequently over-impressed with their newfound wealth and tend to be showy, pushy, arrogant, and, by old money standards, vulgar. To people who grow up with money, it is nothing particularly special - it has always been there and it seems as normal to them as breathing. So they tend not to be so impressed with themselves for having it. And like **Lust4Life** said, they are almost invariably polite to people who have less. They are thankful for the money and lives that they have, but they don’t generally tend to think of themselves as superior to everyone else, whereas the nouveau riche are often haughty, rude and pushy to underlings and sales people in shops and so forth and generally comport themselves as if they were better than the hoi polloi.
>
> When I was young I worked for my father’s business for a while and had ample opportunity to interact with people from both groups. The old money people were a delight, welcoming you into their homes, offering you a drink and seeming to be genuinely interested in you as a person, whereas the new money people were almost invariably superior, dismissive, willful and difficult to deal with.
>
> There was a considerable difference in the way their children behaved also, at least by the time they hit their teens. New money kids tended to parrot their parents’ snobby behavior and were much more prone to drunkeness, rowdiness, reckless driving and getting into trouble than were the children of old money families, who tended to be more mature, manerly and adult-acting than their new money counterparts.
>
> It takes a while for families with money to acheive the educational and societal levels of behavior that are typical for old money families, and that is why it often takes generations to become old money. Old money society is indeed exclusive, but not simply because it doesn’t want anyone to intrude upon its haunts.
Sorry you still remain ignorant. The haunts of the old rich and famous are beyond your knowledge, They don’t have anything in common with the likes of you. They love it when people like you think you have a clue. Fact is you are not ever going to be near theuir haunts, their investment companies or their neighborhoods. that is unless you are contracted to clean their pools.
---
### Author:  [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/74 "2011-03-10T04:05:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> Sorry you still remain ignorant. The haunts of the old rich and famous are beyond your knowledge, They don’t have anything in common with the likes of you. They love it when people like you think you have a clue. Fact is you are not ever going to be near theuir haunts, their investment companies or their neighborhoods. that is unless you are contracted to clean their pools.
Sorry gonzo, I gotta disagree with you on this one. They value privacy, and they do like to live in communities that have ample security - some visible, some not. But they are not recluses that refuse to interact with the ‘great unwashed’. They much prefer to do so on their terms, but as I have said, I have met several people who would be classified as ‘old money’, and
---
### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/75 "2011-03-10T04:18:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> Sorry you still remain ignorant. The haunts of the old rich and famous are beyond your knowledge, They don’t have anything in common with the likes of you. They love it when people like you think you have a clue. Fact is you are not ever going to be near theuir haunts, their investment companies or their neighborhoods. that is unless you are contracted to clean their pools.
This statement is not only foolish but stupid beyond belief. You don’t know the first thing about me, not even my name, and yet you presume to tell me where I’ve been and whom I’ve known and what my life’s experiences with them have been.
And then you have the gall to call me ignorant because the reality of my life conflicts with the fiction you’ve created in your own mind about both me and the lives and behavior of people with great wealth.
Perhaps you could tell us then about your own experiences with the nouveau riche and the old money set and how they conflict with mine? I’m sure it will make for spellbinding reading.
---
### Author:  [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/76 "2011-03-10T04:22:21Z")
Stupid time limit and hamsters…
anyway, ‘old money’ are as human as the rest of us. A bit more healthy, more well-adjusted, and more well-read perhaps, but they have their share of the foibles and follies, they just have the sense to not broadcast them on the front page or the prime time news.
Like I said above, I have worked closely with several ‘old money’ types and have been to their investment companies and their homes. I had to opportunity to ‘join’ them, but declined for personal reasons.
But one of the ways they ‘replenish their stock’ is to reach out to those that do not have the financial means, but have the ‘potential’, thus scholarships to day schools, Ivy League colleges and the like for the kids while the parents are mentored in other ways.
Prior to the twentieth century they were far more homogeneous and exclusive, but that has not been the case for at least a generation, if not a couple.
Again, their politics are across the board, and their children will follow almost every career out there, including some ‘unsavory’ ones, but as long as they shower before they return to the Hamptons, its all good. 😉
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/77 "2011-03-10T05:56:08Z")
Old money is dead. Their decendants are alive and as flawed as anybody else. They have alcohol, drug and mental problems like anyone else. But they have a moral acceptance far beyond their own achievements. They live off what their grandfathers and great grandfathers did,. They have access to the best schools , golf clubs and social clubs. When they drop into congress or the senate, the pols make time to see them. They sit on boards of the big corporations because they have been left tons of stock.
---
### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/78 "2011-03-10T07:01:40Z")
You don’t have the vaguest idea what you’re talking about. You hate people with money even though its obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of them nor experience with them, and everything you say is based on assumptions that grew from that. You come across like a gullible 20-year-old who was easy pickings for his rabble-rousing leftie college professors back in the sixties and never grew out of it. It’s obvious with every new post that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and that you are likely just parroting anti-capitalist babble from forty-five years ago.
---
### Author:  [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/79 "2011-03-10T12:25:59Z")
Has this thread suddenly descended into class warfare? 😃
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387/80 "2011-03-10T13:42:22Z")
Ever since Pluto got demoted, it’s been downhill for the plutocrats.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387.md?page=3)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-old-money-the-same-as-upper-class-i-thought-money-doesnt-class/573387.md?page=5)