# Is opposition of slavery is old is slavery itself? Other Q's. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510 "2019-08-11T17:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/41 "2019-08-14T05:26:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And you can freely stop that relationship at any time. That’s why I said _forced_. The point I was making was that serfdom can be best viewed as a legal system. Local nobles were the government and the serfs lived under a set of laws that were harsh and biased against them. But that doesn’t mean the serfs were the property of the nobles. I also live under a set of laws, as does virtually everyone on the planet. I’m fortunate and the laws I live under are reasonable and I have some influence in their making (with the former being a reflection of the latter). But I am not free to simply opt out of the legal system. The law applies to me and will be enforced upon me regardless of whether or not I agree to it. I can move but all that will do is place me under a different set of laws. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/42 "2019-08-14T05:58:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The point I was making was that serfdom can be best viewed as a legal system. Local nobles were the government and the serfs lived under a set of laws that were harsh and biased against them. But that doesn’t mean the serfs were the property of the nobles. > > I also live under a set of laws, as does virtually everyone on the planet. I’m fortunate and the laws I live under are reasonable and I have some influence in their making (with the former being a reflection of the latter). But I am not free to simply opt out of the legal system. The law applies to me and will be enforced upon me regardless of whether or not I agree to it. I can move but all that will do is place me under a different set of laws. I feel like there is some equivocation in your argument, but then that’s kind of the whole point (so much of this hinges on vagaries in language and different understandings or usages of terms critical to the discussion). I don’t think you’re arguing in bad faith, only that the existence of this argument, this point of contention, is precisely what has started us on the tangent. Slavery today, in America, generally refers to what was practiced in America for much of its history prior to the Civil War. To be free, in America, generally refers to possessing the rights normally considered due to American citizens under the constitution and not being deprived of those rights through imprisonment or other kind of forcible curtailment of liberty. But neither the American version of freedom nor the American version of slavery are universal or natural conditions. So to divine an answer to the question posed by the OP, with so many different views on freedom and slavery throughout history and across cultures, is actually a much more complicated question (even if human history were perfectly known) than it would seem to be on the surface. The more we disagree, the more we agree. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/43 "2019-08-14T10:14:32Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > (I would be remiss not to point out that there were many slaves in Rome who did live under brutal conditions, even far worse than the conditions common in the southern states of the USA during its fling with unpaid labor.) _Damnati in metallum_ - condemned to the mines - was the only kind of slavery you expressly couldn’t be freed from. Just a slow death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/44 "2019-08-14T10:33:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The point I was making was that serfdom can be best viewed as a legal system. “Best viewed” by who? I, for instance, best view it as part of a system of economic class warfare wrapped in the legal frippery of (largely imaginary) mutual obligation, functionally no different than working a Roman _latifundium_, being a Spartan _helot_, a debt bondsman on a Brazilian _fazenda_, owing your soul to the Company Store in West Virginia, or anywhere where “the proletarian must sell himself daily and hourly” > [@](#): > > Local nobles were the government and the serfs lived under a set of laws that were harsh and biased against them. But that doesn’t mean the serfs were the property of the nobles. Could they be sold (with or without the manor?) without a say in the matter? It’s a yes/no question, and if the answer is “yes”, then they _were_ property. The answer, BTW, is definitely “Yes” > [@](#): > > I also live under a set of laws, as does virtually everyone on the planet. I’m fortunate and the laws I live under are reasonable and I have some influence in their making (with the former being a reflection of the latter). But I am not free to simply opt out of the legal system. The law applies to me and will be enforced upon me regardless of whether or not I agree to it. I can move but all that will do is place me under a different set of laws. Does the law _compel_ your labour? If not, it’s not a valid comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/45 "2019-08-14T11:20:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Does the law _compel_ your labour? If not, it’s not a valid comparison. The law definitely compels my _cash_. I need money to pay taxes, and I have to work to get money. Feudalism just does away with the middleman. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/46 "2019-08-14T11:55:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The law definitely compels my _cash_. I need money to pay taxes, and I have to work to get money. That’s not compulsion. Lots of people work without paying income tax. You could voluntarily work at that level of income. Or not work at all, depending on welfare systems where you are. Sales taxes are a different matter, they’re a lot harder to avoid, but again, are not the same as compulsion of labour. For feudal labour, you could not avoid most of them by paying money instead. Actual physical service was what was required. Personally, I think saying paying taxes are a form of slavery is both disingenuous and pretty insulting to actual slaves. Not least because you derive benefit from paying taxes. Slaves derive no such benefit from their labour for their masters (and I’m including serfs’ so-called mutual obligations here - a literally glorified protection racket is not a benefit) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/47 "2019-08-14T12:06:20Z")
Found this searching “earliest recorded slavery”: > [@](#): > > lavery’s Roots: War and Economic Domination > > ``` > 6800 B.C. The world’s first city-state emerges in Mesopotamia. Land ownership and the early stages of technology bring war—in which enemies are captured and forced to work: slavery. > 2575 B.C. Temple art celebrates the capture of slaves in battle. Egyptians capture slaves by sending special expeditions up the Nile River. > 550 B.C. The city-state of Athens uses as many as 30,000 slaves in its silver mines. > 120 A.D. Roman military campaigns capture slaves by the thousands. Some estimate the population of Rome is more than half slave. > 500 Anglo-Saxons enslave the native Britons after invading England. > 1000 Slavery is a normal practice in England’s rural, agricultural economy, as destitute workers place themselves and their families in a form of debt bondage to landowners. > 1380 In the aftermath of the Black Plague, Europe’s slave trade thrives in response to a labor shortage. Slaves pour in from all over the continent, the Middle East, and North Africa. > 1444 Portuguese traders bring the first large cargo of slaves from West Africa to Europe by sea—establishing the Atlantic slave trade. > 1526 Spanish explorers bring the first African slaves to settlements in what would become the United States. These first African-Americans stage the first known slave revolt in the Americas. > 1550 Slaves are depicted as objects of conspicuous consumption in much Renaissance art. > 1641 Massachusetts becomes the first British colony to legalize slavery. > > ``` It was common practice to enslave those one defeated. It was pretty much accepted as business as usual. I then searched, “Did anyone want to abolish slavery in ancient times?” I could only find this: > [@](#): > > I don’t see Gregory of Nyssa mentioned here. Fourth century Christian bishop, has a couple homilies in which he upbraids slave owners for the presumption that they could own human beings. > > I think the Essenes and maybe Cyrus the Great (He at least freed many). Then some instances in China: [Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline) – user45891 Nov 28 '14 at 20:15 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/48 "2019-08-14T12:08:50Z")
I’m not saying the systems are the same - obviously, what we have now is much, much better. I’m saying that it’s a sliding scale, (vastly) different degrees of the same basic concept. In short, I agree with **Little Nemo,** that Feudalism is a form of government, and that Serfs were not property per se, but instead people at the bottom of the social hierarchy. And I disagree that the serfs got nothing in return for their labor: they got government. A crappy, corrupt, predatory government, but a government nonetheless. They got courts and roads and rudimentary economic planning and walls to hide behind and other things civilization needed in order to exist. In retrospect, it wasn’t that great a system, but it _was_ a system, which is better than no system at all. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/49 "2019-08-14T16:01:39Z")
Feudal serfs, slaves, etc. It doesn’t matter - the point is, we see slavery through the model of the southern plantation system - as a distinctive separate ethnic group that was considered subhuman by the slave owners and they were treated like cattle. To my mind this was unique. There were plenty of societies where slaves were as subjugated and devoid of rights, but none I can think of where this was associated with the same determination that the slave race was significantly inferior (beyond the usual jingoistic feelings); certainly few where slaves were exclusively one foreign race. Most slave societies tended to treat slaves as essentially the equivalent of indentured servants. They lived with the owner, they worked for basically room and board. In many societies they were not looked down on, and in Rome for example, freed slaves and their offspring could aspire to earn citizenship. Slaves could own property save money, even work on the side if their tasks at home were done. In many such societies they even had the right to buy their freedom. (There’s the story of the slaves in Brazil’s gold mines, who realized that when they washed after work, they washed flakes of gold from their hair. Some collected this to buy their freedom.) In many societies, slaves had some rights. All this is at odds with our image of slavery fueled by the plantation models. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/50 "2019-08-14T16:07:26Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Feudal serfs, slaves, etc. It doesn’t matter - the point is, we see slavery through the model of the southern plantation system - as a distinctive separate ethnic group that was considered subhuman by the slave owners and they were treated like cattle. > > To my mind this was unique. There were plenty of societies where slaves were as subjugated and devoid of rights, but none I can think of where this was associated with the same determination that the slave race was significantly inferior (beyond the usual jingoistic feelings); certainly few where slaves were exclusively one foreign race. > > Most slave societies tended to treat slaves as essentially the equivalent of indentured servants. They lived with the owner, they worked for basically room and board. In many societies they were not looked down on, and in Rome for example, freed slaves and their offspring could aspire to earn citizenship. Slaves could own property save money, even work on the side if their tasks at home were done. In many such societies they even had the right to buy their freedom. (There’s the story of the slaves in Brazil’s gold mines, who realized that when they washed after work, they washed flakes of gold from their hair. Some collected this to buy their freedom.) In many societies, slaves had some rights. All this is at odds with our image of slavery fueled by the plantation models. Well, perhaps when the North Africans enslaved Christians. But yes, Southern Slavery was not only “peculiar” but also unusual. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/51 "2019-08-14T17:46:00Z")
ASL v 2.0: > [@](#): > > Well, I mean, there’s also the bit about how if a master beats his slave and the slave dies, it’s okay as long as a couple days passed between the beating and the death. Not exactly. The master is only off the hook for the death if the slave was able to stand up under his own power within 24 hours of the beating. If the slave died without ever having enough health to stand up again, the master is liable to the death penalty no matter how many days elapsed. > [@](#): > > Oh, and how even a fellow Israelite can be enslaved indefinitely, so long as you give them a wife and they decide they don’t want to leave the wife you have them in exchange for their freedom. Because the wife is the slaveowner’s property no matter what. The key word above is _and they decide_. If the Israelite slave opts for continued servitude (and that’s whether or not the master had given him a wife), then this arrangement is allowed. He cannot be enslaved indefinitely against his will. ftg: > [@](#): > > Another reference in the OT to limiting slavery are some passages suggesting that slaves were to be freed either in Sabbatical years or Jubilee years. (Or after 7 years in general. Or maybe it applied only to indentured servants. Or …) > > These sort of things implied a negative view of permanent slavery. That’s specifically with Israelite slaves, though. And the reasoning given is that Israelites are servants of G-d based on the covenant at Sinai, and therefore no human being may consider them to permanently be “his” servant/slave. There’s no such negative view of the institution of slavery in general in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/52 "2019-08-14T18:23:41Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The key word above is _and they decide_. If the Israelite slave opts for continued servitude (and that’s whether or not the master had given him a wife), then this arrangement is allowed. He cannot be enslaved indefinitely against his will. But, in the case of a wife and/or children being involved, there would be significant coercion. I don’t think we disagree in general—that the Bible isn’t exactly anti-slavery—and I think those caveats in Exodus that basically lay out how a shrewd master can hope to coerce a male slave (again, the women and children didn’t even have this option open to them) into a lifetime of servitude are important to bring up when someone points to the preceding verse(s) as if to suggest that biblical slavery was no worse than indentured servitude or imprisonment of POWs/criminals. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/53 "2019-08-14T18:37:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m not saying the systems are the same - obviously, what we have now is much, much better. I’m saying that it’s a sliding scale, (vastly) different degrees of the same basic concept. Possibly. But serfdom and slavery are hard against each other at one end of it, and there’s a lot of scale before you get to modern taxes. > [@](#): > > And I disagree that the serfs got nothing in return for their labor: they got government. The fact that other people got the same thing without having to do forced labour gives the lie to that notion, IMO. > [@](#): > > They got courts The court of first recourse for a serf being his [owner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manorial_court)…can’t see much wrong with that idea :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > and roads …that they couldn’t use to travel away without permission… > [@](#): > > and rudimentary economic planning What? Like they couldn’t think for themselves without their Lord doing it for them? That sounds like how some people talk about people on welfare today. > [@](#): > > and walls to hide behind Generally not. That’s the difference between living on the manor and living in a city or as a courtier. > [@](#): > > and other things civilization needed in order to exist. In retrospect, it wasn’t that great a system, but it _was_ a system, which is better than no system at all. False dilemma. The alternative to serfdom was not anarchy, it was a society of free men and voluntary exchange of labour for value. Not something completely unknown, even in that time and place. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/54 "2019-08-14T18:51:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That sounds like how some people talk about people on welfare today. Slavery too in some circles. As in, “Plantation life wasn’t so bad. They got fed, they got shelter, and some of the masters even allowed them a degree of self-government (subject to the master’s kindly oversight, of course). Way better than what factory owners provided to Irish immigrants in places like New York, barely scraping by from day to day and never knowing if they’d have work or food tomorrow.” The usual sort of pro-slavery apologetics. Not that I think Alessan falls into that category (the pro-slavery or slavery apologist category), but I think it’s informative that the arguments presented in favor of serfdom being unlike slavery in key respects sound an awful lot like the arguments put forth for how slavery “wasn’t so bad.” ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/55 "2019-08-14T19:28:05Z")
ASL v2.0: > [@](#): > > But, in the case of a wife and/or children being involved, there would be significant coercion. Only if the slave gets too attached to them - and more so than to (possibly) the family he had on the outside. The Torah expects that an Israelite should not feel greater emotional attachment to master-owned slaves than to returning to being a free member of Israelite society, nor to servitude to a human master rather than being answerable only to G-d. But the Torah does understand that human beings can develop non-ideal feelings, and allows one who has developed such attachment to stay enslaved. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/56 "2019-08-14T19:44:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s specifically with Israelite slaves, though. And the reasoning given is that Israelites are servants of G-d based on the covenant at Sinai, and therefore no human being may consider them to permanently be “his” servant/slave. There’s no such negative view of the institution of slavery in general in the Bible. Again, it’s the Bible. Interpretations for everything are all over the place. I couched my post in such a way that I was aware of such vagaries. A post asserting a specific interpretation doesn’t hold much water with me. A lot, and I mean a _lot_, of people, including experts, will disagree with what you wrote. Oh, another place where the Bible isn’t so positive about slavery regards the Hebrews in Egypt thing. How they ended up as slaves, how they were treated and what they did about it. And how they continued to remember these events to this day. That makes up a pretty large chunk of the Pentateuch. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/57 "2019-08-14T19:54:22Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The Torah expects that an Israelite should not feel greater emotional attachment to master-owned slaves than to returning to being a free member of Israelite society, nor to servitude to a human master rather than being answerable only to G-d. But the Torah does understand that human beings can develop non-ideal feelings, and allows one who has developed such attachment to stay enslaved. Gosh, that’s real compassionate, making allowances for us flawed humans to love our families and so be enslaved with them for our lifetime rather than be split apart. Ain’t choice grand! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/58 "2019-08-14T19:55:57Z")
ftg: > [@](#): > > How they ended up as slaves, how they were treated Sure, the Bible definitely frowns on MISTREATMENT of slaves, but not necessarily on owning them. > [@](#): > > and what they did about it. And how they continued to remember these events to this day. That makes up a pretty large chunk of the Pentateuch. Well, because “they” didn’t do anything about it, G-D freed them, and they’re supposed to remember that, because a special, personal-level relationship with G-d is what the Israelite/Jewish religion is all about. The emphasis is our personal gratitude toward G-d, not simple condemnation of the fact of their slavery in general. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/59 "2019-08-14T20:28:35Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Oh, another place where the Bible isn’t so positive about slavery regards the Hebrews in Egypt thing. How they ended up as slaves, how they were treated and what they did about it. And how they continued to remember these events to this day. That makes up a pretty large chunk of the Pentateuch. Right: Slavery is unconscionable when it’s part of the origin myth of the favored people. When it’s the favored people doing the enslaving, well, that’s just time and place and as long as you don’t literally beat anyone to death, it isn’t anything a deity would turn your water into blood over. Truly a moral for our times. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510/60 "2019-08-14T20:30:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Personally, I think saying paying taxes are a form of slavery is both disingenuous and pretty insulting to actual slaves. And I feel the same way about you comparing serfdom to genuine slavery. It reminds me of the old southern apologists who compared the lives of factory workers in the north to slavery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-opposition-of-slavery-is-old-is-slavery-itself-other-qs/838510.md?page=4)