# Is Oriental now an official slur? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 4, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318 "2002-07-04T04:44:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/1 "2002-07-04T04:44:51Z")
[http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134485582\_noslur01m.html](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134485582_noslur01m.html) > [@](#): > > Beginning today, state and local lawmakers are prohibited from using the term “Oriental” in statutes, codes, rules and regulations. > Instead, officials must use “Asian” to describe people of Asian descent. When they say Asian descent, are they referring to _all_ Asian countries, or only the Oriental ones? According to the [World Atlas](http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/as.htm), many countries in the Middle East are Asian. If a Lebanese man checked off “Asian American” on a form would he be chastised or corrected? What about an Indian? What about a Russian? Would the person who received the form correct them by saying “You are not… you know… Oriental. That’s what we mean by Asian American, only we can’t say it anymore” I’m really confused on this. I’m not trying to be a smart ass or start a Great Debate. I’m confused in the same way that someone from the US is called American when someone from Mexico or Canada, or even the entire Western Hemisphere isn’t, even though their country is part of the Americas. Help me understand what they mean and why Oriental is now bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/2 "2002-07-04T05:28:04Z")
Well, traditionally, Oriental meant anything east of Europe. Turkey was in the Orient, just as much as China or India. I suppose using it on forms makes about as much sense as using Occidental to describe everyone else. Personally, I just think it’s too big an area with too many diverse cultures to be summed up in one word. If I had to set categories, I’d use “West Asian” or “Middle Eastern” for the Middle East, “Central Asian” for Russia, Iran, Afghanistan, and the other -stans in between, “South Asian” for Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, “Southeast Asian” for Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. and “East Asia” for China, Korea and Japan. This is, of course, compeltely arbitrary. Next time I have to list my race on a form, I’m writing “Mutt”. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/3 "2002-07-04T06:25:21Z")
I thought Russia is officially a European country. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/4 "2002-07-04T06:29:35Z")
What about Occidental for us westerners? ---
**Author:** ![Mofo\_Rising](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mofo\_Rising](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mofo_Rising)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/5 "2002-07-04T06:44:05Z")
I was told that Oriental is a term you use when describing _things._ Like an oriental tea set. However, when describing _people_ you use the term Asian. Don’t remember where I picked that up, though. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/6 "2002-07-04T06:57:15Z")
Looking at your link, I think you are confusing the continent of Asia with the Asian race. When referring to race, I think it’s common to call a person from the Middle East “Middle Eastern”, and a person from India “Indian”. “Oriental” is simply considered to be an outdated term with too many negative connotations. “Asian” is now the more accepted term. I think using the word Oriental is similar to using the word Negro. It’s just outdated, that’s all. Yes, it’s confusing because the name of the continent is also used as the name of a sub-group of people who live on that continent, but that’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![furr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@furr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furr)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/7 "2002-07-04T07:28:52Z")
in the UK the word asian is mainly used to talk about people from india or pakistan. confusion arose between my english partner and i because over here asian is most definately used to talk about china, japan, hong kong etc. as to oriental, im in agreement with mofo rising here. i also dont have much of a problem with the word itself in relation to asian people. manily because ‘oriental’ has never been used as a negative word over here, it certainly doesnt have the offense that something like the english term ‘china man’. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/8 "2002-07-04T07:54:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furr \* > **manily because ‘oriental’ has never been used as a negative word over here, it certainly doesnt have the offense that something like the english term ‘china man’.** And isn’t a “fag” just a cigarette over there?😃 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/9 "2002-07-04T08:13:12Z")
Actually, in Britan and the Commonwealth countries, “Oriental” refers to East Asia (China, Japan, Thailand, etc) and “Asian” generally refers to people from the Indian sub-continent. Thus, PC people need to make a distiction. also, in Asia, the terms “Oriental” and “Asian” in both English and in the Asian languages are _interchangeable_ terms. In the US, “Oriental” was a perfectly acceptable term to refer to people from Asia during the 1980’s. Somehow that changed and now it definately has a negative connotation. What makes sense to _me_ is that “Oriental” was a colonial British term and therefore inherently contained a negative bias. Here is an older thread, where I was quite the ass, but it spurred me to dig as much as I could to find out why “Oriental” developed into a bad term in the US. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71909&perpage=50&pagenumber=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71909&perpage=50&pagenumber=1) Here is another older thread [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44652&highlight=oriental](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44652&highlight=oriental) Does someone have access to an unabridged on line dictionary to give full definitions of “Oriental” and “Asian”. OED would be nice for comparisons as well. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/10 "2002-07-04T08:27:47Z")
I use 'em interechangably, and I am one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/11 "2002-07-04T09:20:40Z")
**China Guy** : I don’t use online dictionaries because I have the big Webster’s Third New International Dictionary ( unabridged ) handy :). oriental 1: _adj_ [ME, fr. MF, fr. L _orientalis_ of or belonging to the East, fr. _orient_-, _oriens_, n., orient + _alis_] **1** _often cap_: of, relating to, or situated in the Orient - compare OCCIDENTAL. **2a** : of superior grade, luster, or value - used of pearls and other precious stones; compare OCCIDENTAL 3. **2b** : glowing **2c** _sometimes cap_: being corundum or sapphire but simulating another gem in color (~amethyst) (~aquamarine) (~emerald) **3** _often cap._: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of Orientals (maintain…an ~ politeness and set smile which nothing can dispel or penetrate - Joseph Chiari). **4** _usu cap._: of, relating to, or constituiting the biogeographic realm or region that includes Asia south and southeast of the Himalayas and the Malay archipelago west of Wallace’s line. oriental 2 _usu cap_: **1 orientals** _pl, obs_: oriental languages. **2** : a member of one of the indigenous peoples of the Orient ( as a Chinese, Indian, or Japanese ). oriental 3 _n. pl_ **orientales** _usu cap_ [AmerSp, fr. Sp, adj., easterner, fr. L _orientalis_] : Uruguayan. asian 1 _adj, usu cap_ [L _asianus_, adj. & n., fr. Gk _asianos_, fr, _Asia_ + _-anos_ -an] **1** : of, relating to, or characteristic of the continent of Asia. **2** : of, relating to, or characteristic of the people of Asia. asian 2 _n_ -s _cap_ [L _asianus_]: a native or inhabitant of Asia. So there you have it. Don’t use oriental because people might think you are talking about Uruguayans :p. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/12 "2002-07-04T09:22:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > **Actually, in Britan and the Commonwealth countries, “Oriental” refers to East Asia (China, Japan, Thailand, etc) and “Asian” generally refers to people from the Indian sub-continent. Thus, PC people need to make a distiction. also, in Asia, the terms “Oriental” and “Asian” in both English and in the Asian languages are _interchangeable_ terms.** Not in Australia. “Asian” means East Asian. “Indian” means someone from the subcontinent. ‘Oriental’, OTOH, isn’t commonly used. In fact, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone describe a person as Oriental. I’ve heard objects described as oriental (small ‘o’), but even that makes me uncomfortable. I’m half-Asian, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/13 "2002-07-04T09:39:36Z")
Ok, I will say “I am disasianed” instead of “I’m disoriented” but it still sounds to me like I’m dissing the same people. ---
**Author:** ![Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/14 "2002-07-04T10:04:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Sublight** _ > > **Next time I have to list my race on a form, I’m writing “Mutt”.** I’ve written ‘human’ in that spot on forms a couple times in the past. And every single bloody time, the interviewer/clerk who reviews it tells me, “You can’t put that there.” Can these people see my damned DNA from behind that desk? ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/15 "2002-07-04T10:56:37Z")
I don’t think you’re _required_ to fill in the “race” section on any form. And, more and more, I’m inclined to either leave it blank or fill in “human.” It’s so ridiculous and divisive. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/16 "2002-07-04T14:21:30Z")
All very good points. I guess it comes down to the problem of using a geographical term in a racial manner. The funny thing is, I’ve been around bigots my whole life, seeing as my family is from the south. They drop the “N” bomb without a second thought and never recall Oriental being used in a bad light. If you read that original link you will see that the issue came about due to language in statues referring to minority contracts. I’d like to ask them if some American from a country in Asia would qualify as an Asian American as they use the term? I don’t see why not. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/17 "2002-07-04T14:42:53Z")
Things definitely changed in the past ten years or so, like China guy mentions. I grew up in a particular part of SW Houston where the Asian population was a significant percentage of the total- like upwards of 25-30%. Anyway, the word of choice for everyone was “oriental”. All the Vietnamese/Chinese/Thai/etc… people used that to describe themselves, and it’s what I picked up as habit. Now, I get the impression that it’s about like calling a black/african-american person “colored”. Nobody says anything, but if I lapse and say “oriental”, I get looks like I just said something casually bigoted. It is interesting to note that most of the time, it’s not the asian people doing the looking- it’s almost always other white people. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/18 "2002-07-04T14:43:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oblong \* > \*\* > When they say Asian descent, are they referring to _all_ Asian countries, or only the Oriental ones? > \*\* And what specific countries do you consider “Oriental” instead of just “Asian”? Don’t kid yourself into thinking there’s some sort of long-standing, clear-cut distinction here. Historically, “Oriental” has been used to refer to pretty much anything east of Western Europe. At some times and in some contexts it has meant the Near East (perhaps you have heard the terms “oriental rug” and “Persian rug” used interchangeably?) or even Eastern Europe. “Oriental” is at least as general a term as “Asian”, and carries the additional burdens of being old-fashioned as well as association with colonialism and all sorts of exoticized “Mystic Pearl of the East” type rubbish. Seems like good enough reason not to use it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/19 "2002-07-04T15:56:40Z")
Mrs. Kunilou (who, to be precise, is U.S born of Japanese ancestry) considers the term to be archaic and connotative of stereotyping. She is not actually offened by it, but given the choice between being called Oriental and Asian, she would prefer to be called Asian. Actually, she would prefer to be called “American” but she realizes some people just have to categorize. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318/20 "2002-07-04T17:20:16Z")
Well, I’ll share my _impression_ of what has caused the change over the past 20 years or so. [As a caveat, I come from white bread no crust roots. Speak Mandarin fluently, speak basic Japanese, spouse is a Chinese citizen, daughter is a dual national Chinese/American, have a degree in Mandarin, lived in East Asia for 15 years, and grew up in the home of a decorated WW2 Pacific Theater and Korean Conflict combat vetern who used what were clearly derogatory terms to refer to Orientals/Asians.] Certainly in the mid-80’s, Asian-American female politically correct college students at the University of California, Davis, were happy to be called “ornamentals” by their buddies. My half-Japanese girlfriend and her Asian friends all thought it was “cute”. Please note, these were the same people that occupied “Nelson Mandella Hall” 24 hours a day, and were arrested at a UC Regents meeting for protesting aparthied. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that even 20 years ago, Oriental seemed a bit old fashioned or archaic. Asian was certainly a more used term. Many Universities still had Oriental Studies or Departments of Oriental Languages. My former Chinese professor said that the term “he’s gone oriental” was not a complementary one and used in the 1950’s. However, gradually the term Oriental left a bad taste but my prof didn’t have an explanation why. My guess is that two catch phrases came into being. I’m not sure who originated these catch phrases but they have taken on a life of their own. The first is that “Oriental is a rug”, by implication that oriental refers to things and not people. Maybe the word “oriental” is evolving that way, but check the Tammerlane dictionary quotations. I saw on on-line default dictionary today that had the “oriental is a rug” and that it is now considered a slur. Go back to Kipling (who some people think is a racist, I think he’s a product of his time and will gladly argue with those that hold the former view), who uses the word “oriental” a lot. The second catchphrase is some degree of “oriental is equivalent to n_igg_r/negro/colored.” Personally, while this may be an easy analogy to make, and IMHO may even be a pretty good one with the term “colored”, it is too easy to become “or\*\*nt_l is the same as n_gg\*r.” One races struggle is simply not the same as another races. Equivalent perhaps but not the same. Regardless, once these two catchphrases entered the US mainstream, then it’s all over. Personally, I’ve dug around a lot trying to figure this issue out in \*my mind \*, and the best explanation I’ve come up with is that the word oriental is a colonial era term, and has a inherent negative bias. Certainly, none of the dozen or so Asian-American studies programs and University groups with web pages that I contacted were able to provide more of an explanation. Certainly, no one has come up with some sort of watershed or smoking gun that clearly denotes Oriental becoming a bad word. I spent days googling last year, and found only one brief extract from a scholarly paper. That old thread that I cited above, I repeatedly tried to pin down posters as to why Oriental was offensive. Most just said they didn’t like the term. Of course, I was a younger poster and definately a jerk in that 5 page thread, so that might have been why. Jesus, I really insulted **Wring** in the related pit thread. Regardless, I would really appreciate if someone could explain the historic context or non personal reasons that make “oriental” such a distasteful one now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-oriental-now-an-official-slur/117318.md?page=2)