# Is Our Self-Esteem Too High? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198 "2011-03-10T17:52:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/21 "2011-03-14T01:45:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Self-esteem is a dependent variable. It’s earned by accomplishment. It can’t just be instilled as praise and unearned reward. > […] > You teach them to achieve by teaching them to achieve - by teaching them skill sets and by preaching things like effort, discipline, pereseverance and learning from mistakes. That last thing is very important. Far more is learned from failure than from false praise. What if you have a kid who just won’t tolerate failure? I was like that. Nobody knew what the hell to do with me, and it got to a point where nobody cared. I came out of childhood thinking that however much crap I’d been through, it wasn’t enough. It was never going to be enough. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/22 "2011-03-14T01:49:55Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > What if you have a kid who just won’t tolerate failure? I was like that. Nobody knew what the hell to do with me, and it got to a point where nobody cared. Not liking failure does not mean a kid isn’t going to fail. Don’t tell me you never failed at anything or made any mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/23 "2011-03-14T01:57:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not liking failure does not mean a kid isn’t going to fail. Don’t tell me you never failed at anything or made any mistakes. Of course I did. I was just never taught how not to hate myself, my teachers, school, and life itself every time I fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/24 "2011-03-14T03:15:12Z")
Well there you go. Somebody should have taught you that the goal is not to avoid mistakes (that’s impossible) but to learn from them. Failure is a teacher not a judge. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/25 "2011-03-14T03:48:27Z")
Nobody taught me that - you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/26 "2011-03-14T04:22:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Self-esteem is a dependent variable. It’s earned by accomplishment. It can’t just be instilled as praise and unearned reward. Just handing them those things instills things like entitlement, self-importance, egoism and superiority which are not the same thing. They should start out with a basic understanding that they are of equal value with others (no more no less), but the idea that that building up their ego will make them achieve is complete nonsense, and even worse is telling them they’ve achieved when they haven’t. > > You teach them to achieve by teaching them to achieve - by teaching them skill sets and by preaching things like effort, discipline, pereseverance and learning from mistakes. That last thing is very important. Far more is learned from failure than from false praise. A kid feels _much_ better about himself when he gets a reward because he knows he worked his ass off and earned it than if it’s just handed to him for nothing, and he will also know _why_ he got the reward. he’ll know what he actually did to get it and not get any impression that it’s some kind of birth right. I think this is a little misleading. If you’re teaching a child a new skill and they don’t feel they’re making progress, they’ll lose self-esteem. One of the ways you build self-esteem is to teach the ability to appreciate finer details about oneself. You’re not going to learn how to hit a home run in one day, but you will be developing subskills along the way. Young learners are often not capable of seeing those intermediate goals being achieved. Building ego with praise and _appropriate_ setting of the bar can absolutely build self-esteem. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/27 "2011-03-14T04:24:25Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > I think this is a little misleading. If you’re teaching a child a new skill and they don’t feel they’re making progress, they’ll lose self-esteem. One of the ways you build self-esteem is to teach the ability to appreciate finer details about oneself. You’re not going to learn how to hit a home run in one day, but you will be developing subskills along the way. Young learners are often not capable of seeing those intermediate goals being achieved. > > Building ego with praise and _appropriate_ setting of the bar can absolutely build self-esteem. We are decades away from being able to appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/28 "2011-03-14T04:30:33Z")
From the Simpsons: > [@](#): > > Homer) I’m gonna say this one time, it’s not OK to lose > > Bart) Don’t worry Dad, I’ll try > > Homer) TRY??? Anyone can try 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/29 "2011-03-14T04:51:36Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > I think this is a little misleading. If you’re teaching a child a new skill and they don’t feel they’re making progress, they’ll lose self-esteem. I don’t think this is true. For one thing, if they persevere, they almost always will make _some_ progress, but for another thing it’s easy enough to teach them (as I do with my kids), that it’s perfectly acceptable to decide something isn’t for them after trying it. I just ask them to give something an honest chance first, but they don’t have to be good at everything. It’s just a question of finding what they _are_ good at. > [@](#): > > One of the ways you build self-esteem is to teach the ability to appreciate finer details about oneself. You’re not going to learn how to hit a home run in one day, but you will be developing subskills along the way. Young learners are often not capable of seeing those intermediate goals being achieved. > > Building ego with praise and _appropriate_ setting of the bar can absolutely build self-esteem. I agree with this. I’m just saying the praise has to be for something real, something they actually did - even if it’s just for hustle, or for giving a pitch a good rip on a strike out. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/30 "2011-03-14T10:03:52Z")
Too high? It’s not high enough! I’m winning all the time and nobody is gonna keep me down. They can’t even understand how much I win. My wins will make you pee blood and your mom pregnant. How’s that for self-esteem? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/31 "2011-03-14T12:57:01Z")
Just like nearly everything else in life, self-esteem is something that requires moderation. People need to feel good about themselves, but not so good that they become dicks. It’s all about balance. I grew up learning that there would always be someone better than me and someone worse than me at any given endeavor. As long as that message remains consistent, and no one is punished for failing rather than being rewarded for winning, everything should be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/32 "2011-03-14T13:05:01Z")
Funny typo: > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > academic preformace Don’t let it affect your self-esteem, though. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/33 "2011-03-14T13:36:49Z")
Very good article [here.](http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/) The gist is, that praise should be for effort (which the kid can influence) and not for smarts/intelligence, which is supposed to be there or not. Praising kids for smarts instead of praising them for trying and persevering has the opposite effect of what parents want to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/34 "2011-03-14T13:51:52Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Too high? It’s not high enough! I’m winning all the time and nobody is gonna keep me down. They can’t even understand how much I win. My wins will make you pee blood and your mom pregnant. How’s that for self-esteem? Charlie Sheen? Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/35 "2011-03-14T18:45:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Self-esteem is a dependent variable. It’s earned by accomplishment. It can’t just be instilled as praise and unearned reward. Just handing them those things instills things like entitlement, self-importance, egoism and superiority which are not the same thing. They should start out with a basic understanding that they are of equal value with others (no more no less), but the idea that that building up their ego will make them achieve is complete nonsense, and even worse is telling them they’ve achieved when they haven’t. > > You teach them to achieve by teaching them to achieve - by teaching them skill sets and by preaching things like effort, discipline, pereseverance and learning from mistakes. That last thing is very important. Far more is learned from failure than from false praise. A kid feels _much_ better about himself when he gets a reward because he knows he worked his ass off and earned it than if it’s just handed to him for nothing, and he will also know _why_ he got the reward. he’ll know what he actually did to get it and not get any impression that it’s some kind of birth right. Observation: I love the thought of getting advice on managing self-esteem from someone who has chosen to put the title “Expert” underneath their username. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/36 "2011-03-15T02:53:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just like nearly everything else in life, self-esteem is something that requires moderation. People need to feel good about themselves, but not so good that they become dicks. It’s all about balance. > > I grew up learning that there would always be someone better than me and someone worse than me at any given endeavor. As long as that message remains consistent, and no one is punished for failing rather than being rewarded for winning, everything should be fine. We’re decades away from _this_, too. It’s just too kind, for one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/37 "2011-03-15T12:35:04Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > I’ve seen research that says it is better to praise kids for trying hard rather than for being smart. When a kid does a pattern matching exercise and the adult says, “Good job, you must be really smart. Now, would you like to try another one like this, or a harder one?” the kid tends to pick the easier option because they are afraid to risk exposing themselves as not actually smart. When the adult says, “Good job, you must have tried hard,” the kid tends to go for a harder puzzle the next time because they know that trying hard is within their control. I would say “worked hard”, because “try” has a connotation of “fail”. There is no try, young Jedi… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/38 "2011-03-15T12:50:37Z")
Where are these schools that have all those goofy self-esteem programs? I’ve been teaching since 1985 in two states and three districts and never seen anything like that. I’ve never even heard about it first hand from another teacher at state and national level conventions. I expect that this is one of those things that rare in the real world, but electronic media and the internet make it seem like it is much more common than it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198/39 "2011-03-15T13:07:59Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Where are these schools that have all those goofy self-esteem programs? I’ve been teaching since 1985 in two states and three districts and never seen anything like that. I’ve never even heard about it first hand from another teacher at state and national level conventions. I expect that this is one of those things that rare in the real world, but electronic media and the internet make it seem like it is much more common than it actually is. If you ask me, it was a strawman from the word go. Pull a few silly quotes, fill in the context with your imagination and presto, you have a great new way to polarize the anti-intellectuals against the intellectuals. (BTW, you’re one of the intellectuals.) It doesn’t hurt that a lot of the antis were raised with a crummy sense of self-worth and think they turned out jim dandy. Issues like this are like catnip to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-our-self-esteem-too-high/574198.md?page=1)