# Is out-of-hand rejection of BLM conclusive evidence of unapologetic racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136 "2021-09-05T14:29:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/41 "2021-09-06T04:49:40Z")
To me at this point Black Lives Matter is a meaningless phrase. There are people on the SDMB who in one board talk about how much they support black lives matter, then on another forum defend actual African slavery with “How do YOU know if they were treated badly or not?” It’s a buzz word you use now to make it seem like you actually care. When I see a Major Brand use Black Lives Matter but then know they still use Sweat Shop Labor in 3rd world countries, I actually have a negative reaction to that phrase. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/42 "2021-09-06T08:11:22Z")
But do you flip tables if a website dares to have a BLM banner? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/43 "2021-09-06T13:19:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You may as well claim that the DNC platform comprises the mission statement of “liberalism”. I’m not making any claims. All I asked was whether the link provided elucidated values which uphold the BLM movement. And what was the material difference, if any. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/44 "2021-09-06T13:29:14Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > many factions that identify with Antifa use tactics that others disagree with, only to be told that if you’re against anything someone who is Antifa does, then you must be pro-fascist since Antifa means anti-fascist. Is this a claim you can actually source, or is it just the usual vague accusation type of thing that you would refuse to actually back up? Just as there are things that individuals who identify with BLM may do that people are absolutely free to disagree with, there are things that individuals who identify with antifa may do that people are free to disagree with. What would make you someone who is pro-fascist would be to disagree with anti-fascism. What would make you someone who does not believe that black lives matter would be to disagree that black lives matter. You also confuse a state, with specific policies that can be looked at and determined as to whether or not they fit the name they have chosen for themselves, and a philosophy. You, in trying to pigeonhole a philosophy, condemn it out of hand, because there may be individuals who believe in that philosophy that do things you disagree with. You are absolutely free to disagree with the words or actions of individuals who believe in a philosophy without having to reject it outright, as you seem inclined to do. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/45 "2021-09-06T13:39:53Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > there are far more people protesting against police misconduct than there are protesting for universal health care, the lack of which kills orders of magnitude more black people than police shootings do. So, it must mean something else than simply thinking we should do as much as possible to protect Black lives. There is more than just the shootings and killing that is being protested against the police, it is the oppression and terrorism of entire neighborhoods. You make the mistake of thinking that because people prioritize one thing at this time, that they don’t care about other things. The terrorism and oppression of minorities in their own homes and neighborhoods is something that does draw more crowds and attention, specifically because it is an action, not an inaction, by the state that harms people. And there are marches and rallies for UHC, you just don’t see them in the news as much as they are not confronted as brutally by the police, so they are less exciting. They are not shown to you in the media that you choose to consume because they are not as visceral, not as able to give you something to be frightened of. > [@Ludovic](#): > > I haven’t heard anything from the media and Google gives me a couple tiny marches from a few years ago. Are you saying that your google is broken? > **[Medicare for All Rallies in 50 Cities Show Big Support for Universal Health Care](https://truthout.org/articles/medicare-for-all-rallies-in-50-cities-show-big-support-for-universal-health-care/)** > > The common strategic thread for success is building a strong, popular social movement demanding health care for all. So, 10 points for the attempt, but 0 points for the actual content of your little “gotcha” fallacious argument here. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/46 "2021-09-06T13:44:53Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > So, whether or not you actually are a member of BLM(GNF) or are just sympathetic to the phrase “black lives matter” is a distinction that is lost on many, many people. Yes, you are correct that there are many, many ignorant people. The question is, should we be and remain one of those ignorant people in order to dismiss a philosophy we’d rather not thing about, or educate ourselves to actually understand that distinction. Seems you are looking to follow the former path, and to not only remain ignorant, but to spread your ignorance. I disagree that that is a useful path for actual understanding, but rather a path for being dismissive of the oppression, terrorism, and death that is imposed by actors of the state on our fellow citizens for the color of their skin. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/47 "2021-09-06T13:49:15Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > There are people on the SDMB who in one board talk about how much they support black lives matter, then on another forum defend actual African slavery with “How do YOU know if they were treated badly or not?” This is a pretty vague accusation if it’s meant to actually be a part of a convincing argument. There are “people” who believe lots of different things. Is there are reason that you think that the people on the SDMB are being inconsistent because there are some other people on some other forum who say something else? > [@Asuka](#): > > When I see a Major Brand use Black Lives Matter but then know they still use Sweat Shop Labor in 3rd world countries, I actually have a negative reaction to that phrase. That’s fair, corporations do tend to pay lip service to many movements for public relations reasons. Do you react as viscerally, and become pro-breast cancer, when you see a pink ribbon on a product? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/48 "2021-09-06T13:51:25Z")
While I know that corporations are, by inherent design, sociopathic, and that they only embrace movements because it will enhance their bottom line to do so (or at least, they believe it will), I still think it’s, on balance, a good thing when they embrace positive movements. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/49 "2021-09-06T13:51:35Z")
The Black Lives Matter movement is solely about ending the oppression and terrorism by state actors towards Black people based on the color of their skin. How individuals or groups or organizations go about attempting to achieve this goal can vary dramatically, and even conflict with one another. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/50 "2021-09-06T14:03:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How individuals or groups or organizations go about attempting to achieve this goal can vary dramatically, and even conflict with one another. I hear what you’re saying and I don’t disagree with the core principles of BLM as a movement. But a link to a site was provided and subsequently rejected for _reasons_. Looking at the about section of the link, I was curious as to why it was summarily rejected as being “wrong”. I found nothing objectionable about the outlined principles. So is it being rejected because it’s not the authoritative source of BLM? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/51 "2021-09-06T14:07:23Z")
It’s not that it’s wrong, or that we’re rejecting it. It’s that we’re pointing out that that’s just one specific organization that’s aligned with the movement, not the movement itself. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/52 "2021-09-06T14:10:18Z")
What is wrong is the claim that BLM is a specific organization because someone bought the URL and used the words as part of its name. This is essentially like rejecting democracy because North Korea uses the word in their name, and therefore speaks for anyone who is pro-democracy. There certainly are a number of people who are actual members of that particular BLM organization, but that doesn’t mean that they speak for anyone who seeks to end the terrorism and oppression imposed by the state on people in their homes and neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/53 "2021-09-06T14:26:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s not that it’s wrong, or that we’re rejecting it. It’s that we’re pointing out that that’s just one specific organization that’s aligned with the movement, not the movement itself. Got it. Thx. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/54 "2021-09-06T14:35:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, 10 points for the attempt, but 0 points for the actual content of your little “gotcha” fallacious argument here. Genuinely asking for information is a gotcha ya? Gee, thanks for providing it without any snark. I followed the link to the enormous marches for universal health care, and there were only a few that showed the size of the crowd, and for good reason, the only one that I saw _on the very website that is promoting some of the events_ that got over a couple dozen is the one in NYC. That shows that there wasn’t some huge wave of demonstrations as larger or larger than BLM that I had been missing, commensurate with health care’s disproportionate affect on American lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/55 "2021-09-06T14:50:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And there are marches and rallies for UHC, you just don’t see them in the news as much as they are not confronted as brutally by the police, so they are less exciting. I was responding to the claim that BLM means nothing more than recognizing that Black Lives Matter. Attention to certain causes because they’re more anger-inducing belies that claim. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > They are not shown to you in the media that you choose to consume because they are not as visceral, not as able to give you something to be frightened of. NPR is trying to frighten me? There are plenty more stories that seemed fairly neutral about the protests against police misconduct than about any similar demonstrations for universal health care. They weren’t sensationalist about either the suppression of the protests nor the opportunistic looting and destruction that went along with them. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/56 "2021-09-06T19:10:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Seems you are looking to follow the former path, and to not only remain ignorant, but to spread your ignorance. My bona fides in the matter of civil justice are impeccable, so step back. But, this thread isn’t about what you or I know. It’s about what **Ponderoid’s** friend and those like them know. And, like it or not, there are a lot of people out there who believe that the movement and the organization share the same goals/beliefs. That it’s a: Marxist (whatever the hell they think that means) Anti police Anti family Racist movement. It’s not spreading ignorance to point out that a large portion of our country doesn’t understand completely what is meant. By knowing where their ignorance comes from we can better devise a strategy to combat that ignorance. To answer the question in the op: Is out of hand rejection of BLM conclusive evidence of unapologetic racism? Maybe, or maybe they don’t get or don’t want to get the distinction. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/57 "2021-09-07T04:03:30Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > My bona fides in the matter of civil justice are impeccable, so step back. Unfortunately, that’s not true. The only _bona fides_ you have on this board are the words in your posts. And the summary of your posts in this thread is accurate: you were given new information, and you chose to reject it rather than listen, even when citations were presented. Now you have taken the next step and chosen to attack the people who pointed out your ignorance, while completely changing your claim, aka moving the goalposts. Is it really that hard to say “I’m sorry. I was wrong. I thought BLM was an organization, but the #BlackLivesMatter hashtag clearly predates the organization, and many who use it do not identify with the organization”? That’s the sort of thing that would boost your _bona fides_ here on a board about fighting ignorance. Caring more about defending yourself when you mess up makes it look like you care more about saving face than the subject being discussed. As for your new argument, I will address it in a separate post, as it naturally fits with another argument made in this thread, and I can more easily address both at once. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/58 "2021-09-07T04:27:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If on the other hand, they had done careful homework and research and decided that BLM entailed a lot of baggage which they didn’t agree with, then it would be different. That would only work as a justification for why they themselves did not want to support BLM. It wouldn’t explain why they wanted to avoid anyone else who put that label on their site. Any informed opinion of BLM would know that carrying the slogan does not mean that someone aligns themselves with every other person who has used that term. They would also be aware that having that sort of response is often perceived as saying that black lives do not in fact matter, and that police violence toward black people is okay. And thus they’d want to make it clear that’s not what they meant. If you’re not racist, then you want to make sure you don’t accidentally come off as racist. Of course, that’s only for informed people. If we look at uninformed people, then @mikecurtis’s most recent post becomes relevant: > [@mikecurtis](#): > > like it or not, there are a lot of people out there who believe that the movement and the organization share the same goals/beliefs. That it’s a: > Marxist (whatever the hell they think that means) > Anti police > Anti family > Racist > movement. > > It’s not spreading ignorance to point out that a large portion of our country doesn’t understand completely what is meant. By knowing where their ignorance comes from we can better devise a strategy to combat that ignorance. > > To answer the question in the op: Is out of hand rejection of BLM conclusive evidence of unapologetic racism? > Maybe, or maybe they don’t get or don’t want to get the distinction. First off, you are describing a position that doesn’t make sense. If they believe that the organization is what BLM is, but are informed about the organization, they won’t believe any of those things about it. Nothing about the organization fits those things, and they have disavowed people who do support those things. So we must assume that they are, in fact, uninformed. And then you hit on the issue in your last sentence: why are they so uninformed? Why don’t they care enough about the possibility that black people are being harmed by police to look into it, and not only read what their opposition says about them? Then, throw in the fact that, if they’ve ever stated these beliefs before (like the person in the OP has), they will have had friends who told them they were wrong. And they will have refused to listen to them. It does not at all make sense to say that they merely “don’t get it.” They clearly don’t want to get it. They don’t want to understand the pleas of black people being mistreated. And they can’t just then ignore it. They have a visceral reaction whenever they see it, being willing to boycott anyone who dares even say the phrase. That type of hatred is not a normal reaction. It shows a hate and contempt for the very concept. And since that concept has to do with race, it is indeed racist. As for how we should appeal to such people? That’s a separate topic. But, given that neither having the information out there nor having friends explain things to them works, it seems likely that the person is beyond the point where you can do anything. And if they won’t at least dampen it down for the sake of friendship, are they really your friend? No, the OP is entirely right to end the friendship. They clearly put their hatred of BLM above the value of the friendship. And the OP clearly puts their support of BLM above the value of their friendship. Thus there is no friendship there anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/59 "2021-09-07T07:23:23Z")
Anyone doing research on the organisation “BLM” would find a page that reads as a political manifesto and an organisation that appears to be making political demands. Including “defund the police”. It is perectly reasonable and defendable to be against that particular organisation and it does not make a person racist. That wouldn’t be an “out-of-hand” rejection though. That would be a rejection of a defined organsiation, with a specific set of demands and making that rejection on the basis of disagreeing with beliefs, demands and tactics. If PETA changed their name to “Animal Rights” then an animal lover could legitimately be said to be against “Animal Rights” and yet still be in favour of animal rights. However, If you reject out-of-hand the concept that the lives of people with darker skin do actually matter as much as anyone else then yes, you are clearly a racist. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136/60 "2021-09-07T07:39:57Z")
You, Chronos and several others seem to believe that labels always mean what they literally mean. They don’t. Anyone can claim any label at any time. Furthermore, many on this site want to tell others that the meaning they assign to labels or symbols is intrinsically wrong. However, reality doesn’t work that way. When an organization explicitly states they are Marxist it’s valid to reject that organization. Noone has an obligation to support Marxists just because their business card has race related terms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-out-of-hand-rejection-of-blm-conclusive-evidence-of-unapologetic-racism/950136.md?page=4)