# Is patriotism a virtue or vice or something else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899 "2009-07-04T15:55:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/1 "2009-07-04T15:55:47Z")
In each country the locals know patriotism is a virtue for them and a vice for their neighbors. I suppose in Somalia they have bumper stickers that say “My Pirates, Right Or Wrong” Having lived overseas in different countries, I learned that you quickly refocus and become attached to place you live. I’m glad that Europe has lost the rivalries that caused millennia of wars, and only hope it lasts. And that the pax moderna spreads to Russia and it’s contentious neighbors. So I’m ambivalent about patriotism. That feeling is good and heartwarming, until you see jingoists wrapped in the flag and hating the rest of world. Then it seems more of a distraction than a goal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/2 "2009-07-04T16:02:12Z")
Wilde is attributed with the quote “Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.” So, it’s both? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/3 "2009-07-04T16:26:52Z")
I consider it to be a destructive flaw. If your country is worth supporting you don’t need patriotism to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/4 "2009-07-04T16:49:41Z")
Patriotism, like piety, can be turned into a virtue or a vice, depending on how you define it and what you do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/5 "2009-07-04T16:50:55Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I consider it to be a destructive flaw. If your country is worth supporting you don’t need patriotism to justify it. Some would say patriotism is criticizing your government when it deserves to be criticized. Patriotism as nothing more than a knee-jerk “my country can do no wrong, support it no matter what” is a vice. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/6 "2009-07-04T17:06:04Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Patriotism, like piety, can be turned into a virtue or a vice, depending on how you define it and what you do with it. I’d agree with this. Patriotism can vary from a mild to a very strong motivation, but there’s nothing really of it that makes it inherently good or bad. The virtues or vices are what patriotism may lead to, not itself. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/7 "2009-07-04T17:21:36Z")
I’d define patriotism as love of one’s country, and as with other loves, it is a virtue, though it can be counterfeited or mixed with other things that make it a vice. As such, patriotism does not mean being blind to the faults of your country, but rather wanting to correct those faults. It means having admiration, respect, and affection for those aspects of your country’s history, culture, etc. that are admirable. The patriot is aware of the less-than-admirable aspects, but he doesn’t focus all his attention on them (unless he can do something about them). Patriotism in no way implies a hostility or negative attitude toward other countries. The patriot does not have to believe that his country is objectively better than all others, but subjectively, it holds the highest place in his heart, the way a person would love their own family—their own parent or spouse or children—above all others. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/8 "2009-07-04T18:32:32Z")
I would say it’s a form of tribalism that is neither exceptional nor praiseworthy. There isn’t that much difference between “Rah Rah, we’re the best!” nationalism, and the “we’re the best” of racialists, ideological warriors, elitist intellectuals, and militant religious and atheist activists. Group loyalty and holding up your social group as superior seems to be pretty hardwired thinking, but that doesn’t mean we should praise it. Ironically the OP, holding Europe up as a model of virtue versus the nutty Slavics, already has some things in common with the tribal thinking of the patriotism he deplores. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/9 "2009-07-04T20:38:22Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Ironically the OP, holding Europe up as a model of virtue versus the nutty Slavics, already has some things in common with the tribal thinking of the patriotism he deplores. Uh, that’s a bit of an exaggeration of the OP’s statement… I don’t think you can call any opinion on a country patriotism. There’s a big difference between ‘Europe is the best!’ and ‘I’m glad Europeans aren’t killing each other as much anymore’. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/10 "2009-07-04T22:15:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’d define patriotism as love of one’s country, and as with other loves, it is a virtue, though it can be counterfeited or mixed with other things that make it a vice. > > As such, patriotism does not mean being blind to the faults of your country, but rather wanting to correct those faults. It means having admiration, respect, and affection for those aspects of your country’s history, culture, etc. that are admirable. The patriot is aware of the less-than-admirable aspects, but he doesn’t focus all his attention on them (unless he can do something about them). > > Patriotism in no way implies a hostility or negative attitude toward other countries. The patriot does not have to believe that his country is objectively better than all others, but subjectively, it holds the highest place in his heart, the way a person would love their own family—their own parent or spouse or children—above all others. I’d agree that patriotism does not imply hostility or negativity towards other countries, but i’d say that certainly it is possible for it to lead to or consist of those things. I guess what I don’t understand is how it can be so clearly considered a virtue when it has the potential for all these unpleasant things to be mixed with it. I mean, I might say that patriotism does not imply a positive attitude towards other countries, nor does it have to believe that the country in question _isn’t_ better than all others. I suppose that essentially I don’t see any reason to take an example of positive feeling towards one’s country that leads to good deeds, and another of a positive feeling that leads to bad deeds, and declare that only one is patriotism. I would define patriotism solely as loving one’s country - and in my eyes, love isn’t inherently a virtue - to use your terms, I would say that it _requires_ mixing with other things in order to be a virtue or vice at all, because that’s where the effects lay. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/11 "2009-07-04T22:45:43Z")
_Everything_ has the potential for all sorts of unpleasant things to be mixed up in it. I usually make the distinction between patriotism and jingoism. Patriotism is a virtue and is as described by **Thudlow Boink** ; it’s love of your country and wanting the best for it, which often means pointing out that something is going wrong. Jingoism is the evil twin–“we’re #1, my country right or wrong, everyone else is icky” stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/12 "2009-07-04T23:23:09Z")
When patriotism edges over into nationalism, it is definitely a vice. The kind of lily-livered patriotism that used to cause me joy when the Montreal Expos won something is harmless but also meaningless. Once they took the team away, I no longer cared. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/13 "2009-07-04T23:29:54Z")
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first” - Charles de Gaulle ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/14 "2009-07-04T23:32:32Z")
Last refuge of scoundrels. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/15 "2009-07-05T01:57:18Z")
Patriotism is an emotion. Like any emotion it can lead to positive or negative actions. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/16 "2009-07-05T11:56:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Patriotism is an emotion. Like any emotion it can lead to positive or negative actions. **Little Nemo** –I never knew you were Vulcan-American.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/17 "2009-07-05T15:10:01Z")
Patriotism is telling everyone else that we’re the best place in the world, and telling ourselves that we’re the worst place in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/18 "2009-07-05T16:09:52Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > Is patriotism a virtue or vice or something else? It’s blinkered stupidity in the allegiance to an oftentimes derivative, coloured standard and the arbitrary geographical boundaries it represents. ‘[Pangean](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Pangea)’ patriotism is the only qualifiable kind. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/19 "2009-07-06T07:36:42Z")
“Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism” G. Washington. It depends on how you define patriotism and what you consider a vice/virtue. Even a quality such as loyalty can be a vice in some unfortunate circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899/20 "2009-07-06T16:51:25Z")
[QUOTE=G. K. Chesterton] “My country, right or wrong,” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober. [/quote] The latter of which, like the original, is a reasonable sentiment if one’s intention is to _do something about it_, or to try to at any rate. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-a-virtue-or-vice-or-something-else/501899.md?page=2)