# Is Patriotism Dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2000, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997 "2000-06-29T12:33:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/21 "2000-06-29T22:44:18Z")
**Old Scratch** We have found a point of agreement. Since you’re checking out Hayek, you might be interested in his Theory of Spontaneous Order. **Matt** > [@](#): > > Interestingly, the word idiot comes from the ancient Greek idiotes, meaning one who looks out only for himself and doesn’t concern himself with society and the nation That _is_ interesting. But not nearly as interesting as this: > [@](#): > > The basis of Libertarianism is that society does not exist in any meaningful way. The basis of Libertarianism is Noncoercion. Most Libertarians embrace free-market economics, which of course implies a thriving and vital society. By the way, _dense_ comes from the ancient Greek _dasys_, meaning thick with hair. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2000, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/22 "2000-06-29T22:48:17Z")
It’s surprising how much libertarians and socialists actually agree on. Of course we have all those pesky disagreements, but to hell with those. Let’s form one big happy party. 🙂 Curious lib, did you agree with both paragraphs I posted or only one of them? I will check out the theory of spontaneous order too. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/23 "2000-06-29T22:51:24Z")
Oh, Jeez, matt! I don’t care enough for the Libertarian, anti-libertarian debate to catch such subtle cuts, plus, I am far to obtuse to read that far into a post. me just go back to coloring book now. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/24 "2000-06-30T00:19:41Z")
**Old Scratch** I’m afraid I agree only that it is a tyranny to claim some mystical privilege like eminent domain, and force people from their homes, and that it is a folly to presume consent by virtue of space-time coordinates at birth. An excellent example of Spontaneous Order is language. No one is in charge of it, yet it evolves into a natural order. The free-market would be another. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/25 "2000-06-30T12:16:05Z")
[quote] I’m curious about whether there are any non-Americans who take goboy’s viewpoint - namely, that you shouldn’t go live in a country unless you’re prepared to begin living your life in every way as though you were born there. Even if that means giving up your native language, not befriending anyone else from your home country, etc. [quote] Now you’re being dishonest. I never said tohat immigrants should give up tiies to the home country or that they should never speak their native languages. I will reiterate my points: 1)Immigrants must be loyal to their new country. that means you put America’s interests first. that means not waving the cuban flag in Miami. 2)Immigrants must learn English. I don’t care what you speak at home or in your neighborhood, but to particpate in public life, (i.e., register to vote, get a driver’s license) you must speak English. 3)Immigrants should make an effort to assimilate. That does NOT mean to give up their heritage. In several posts, I have praised America’s diversity. Diversity does not mean that I am a Korean first and an american second, it does not mean my tribe comes first. This goes for white folks, too. We have to embrace the whole of America. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/26 "2000-06-30T12:27:01Z")
> [@](#): > > 1)Immigrants must be loyal to their new country. Define “loyalty”. Should immigrants show a respect for, and be willing to defend, the institutions and practices of the new country? Yes. Should they stick up for every law and policy of the country? No, but neither should a born-and-bred inhabitant; as was said in the patriotism thread, there is nothing more patriotic than working to make your country, adopted or otherwise, a better place. Should immigrants support the national sporting teams? I don’t care. That’s their choice. When England aren’t playing in football, I support somebody else. > [@](#): > > 2)Immigrants must learn English I have to disagree with you there. I don’t think immigrants should _have_ to, but that they’d be complete idiots not too. As I’ve said before, someone who immigrates to the UK but doesn’t speak English won’t be able to sell me a product or service or pop down the pub with me for a pint and a chat, but that’s their decision. > [@](#): > > 3)Immigrants should make an effort to assimilate Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/27 "2000-06-30T12:37:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Define “loyalty”. Should immigrants show a respect for, and be willing to defend, the institutions and practices of the new country? Yes We agree. That’s how I define loyalty. Loyalty does not mean being an obedient robot. There are plenty of those in Pyongyang, Damascus, and Bagdad. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2000, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/28 "2000-07-01T10:01:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Most Libertarians embrace free-market economics, which of course implies a thriving and vital society. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:wally ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2000, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/29 "2000-07-01T10:20:06Z")
Of course, we lack the eloquence and self-control of our detractors. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2000, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997/30 "2000-07-01T14:37:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Now you’re being dishonest. I never said tohat immigrants should give up tiies to the home country or that they should never speak their native languages. I asked you if you would have stopped speaking English entirely had you become a Korean citizen. Your reply was: “I would have become more Korean than the Korean themselves.” Sorry, but that sounds like a “yes” to me. I’ve just posted about most of your points in the other thread and I really see no need to have two threads running on the same subject, so I’m just going to reply to this bit: > [@](#): > > to particpate in public life, (i.e., register to vote, get a driver’s license) you must speak English You need to speak English to REGISTER to vote? How in God’s name are they going to enforce that one? I can see the argument about not printing voting materials in other languages (I disagree with it, but I can see it), but just to register - the only way that could possibly be done would be to require potential voters to take a test and that would be enormously impractical, if it would even be constitutional, which I also doubt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-patriotism-dead/23997.md?page=1)