# Is permission required from musicians for political rallies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 26, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968 "2016-07-26T19:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/21 "2016-07-27T03:33:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There is reason to believe that a political campaign is a use in commerce. It’s not settled, but it’s not an easy win either way. I think it would be a tough sell as there is no exchange of money for a good or service, or anything commonly thought of as commerce. > [@Acsenray](#): > > You personally might not, but musicians think they have good evidence to show that a significant proportion of the public does think that there is some kind of affiliation or sponsorship, or at the very least approval or consent. And they might have a pretty good argument given that if it’s a commercial, they actually do have to give consent. There is a real possibility of confusion. Which way this would actually tip I can’t say. Let’s take 2008 when for a brief time the media was calling Sarah Palin " Sarah Barracuda." The campaign began playing Heart’s song Barracuda at campaign events. Heart raised hell and they stopped. How could anyone believe that Heart (whoever they are individually, if they are even still alive) wrote this song nearly 20 years earlier in the hopes that Palin would come along so as to endorse her? It would seem to be a particularly dense person who believed that the playing of that song meant that the band Heart officially endorsed McCain/Palin 2008. It seems as if these artists/songwriters are asking for more control than the law allows or it should allow. They absolutely have the right to make money off of their creative work and control public performance of it _for commercial gain related to the song._ What they do not (should not) get to do is control how a song influences or is perceived in popular culture. What if I am creating a reality show “How Rednecks Blow Shit Up” and come on the scene of a burning house with drunken rednecks in the yard playing Skynard and blaming each other for the fire. In my mind, I do not owe Lynard Skynard any money for that. The song is background to the real story. Only if I am attempt to make money off of the song itself should I have to pay. I think that is the spirit and intent of the law. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/22 "2016-07-27T03:44:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Let’s take 2008 when for a brief time the media was calling Sarah Palin " Sarah Barracuda." The campaign began playing Heart’s song Barracuda at campaign events. Heart raised hell and they stopped. > > How could anyone believe that Heart (whoever they are individually, if they are even still alive) wrote this song nearly 20 years earlier in the hopes that Palin would come along so as to endorse her? Are you kidding? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/23 "2016-07-27T03:45:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think it would be a tough sell as there is no exchange of money for a good or service, or anything commonly thought of as commerce. [Are](http://shop.donaldjtrump.com/?utm_campaign=djt_1570_k&utm_medium=ad&utm_source=k_google-kenshoo_text&utm_term=k_store_cpc%7C401%7Ckw7944) [you](https://shop.hillaryclinton.com/) [sure](https://garysgear.com/)[?](https://jill-stein-for-president-store.myshopify.com/) Sure, the proceeds from those products go to a campaign rather into someone’s pocket, but pretty much every current campaign offers goods in exchange for money. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/24 "2016-07-27T03:49:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How could anyone believe that Heart (whoever they are individually, if they are even still alive) wrote this song nearly 20 years earlier in the hopes that Palin would come along so as to endorse her? [This was an especially interesting case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracuda_(song)#Usage_at_the_2008_Republican_National_Convention), as four members of Heart are credited co-writers: the Wilson sisters Ann and Nancy, guitarist Roger Fisher, and drummer Mike DeRosier. Fisher (despite supporting Obama) and DeRosier, for their own reasons, were fine with McCain’s campaign using “Barracuda”. However, Ann and Nancy Wilson disagreed, and fired off a cease-&-desist letter on their own. Nothing went to court, and I don’t guess Fisher and DeRosier were all _that_ fired up about it … but I wonder what would happen in court if co-songwriters truly disagreed and wanted their interests represented separately in court. . ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/25 "2016-07-27T03:53:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What if I am creating a reality show “How Rednecks Blow Shit Up” and come on the scene of a burning house with drunken rednecks in the yard playing Skynard and blaming each other for the fire. > > In my mind, I do not owe Lynard Skynard any money for that. The song is background to the real story. Only if I am attempt to make money off of the song itself should I have to pay. I think that is the spirit and intent of the law. You’re making money off the reality show, right? Then pay the people who contribute to the show - including Lynyrd Skynyrd. Or if you don’t want to pay the band to use their music, right your own southern anthems that inspire the same good-time redneck atmosphere that they do. If that seems difficult, that’s a pretty good argument for paying the band. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/26 "2016-07-27T06:40:14Z")
Whatever the legal position, it’s not exactly good PR to be caught out employing people who are so careless and disorganised as not to have checked whether they were going to risk such a fuss in the first place, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/27 "2016-07-27T10:26:43Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > And to clarify, I consider songwriters/composers to fall under the ‘musician’ /artist titles. As I said before, there are two sets of copyright interests in a sound recording, one for composers/songwriters and one for musicians/recording artists. The same person might hold both interests for a particular recording, but they are separate rights. The composition interest actually has more rights. > [@bordelond](#): > > Nothing went to court, and I don’t guess Fisher and DeRosier were all _that_ fired up about it … but I wonder what would happen in court if co-songwriters truly disagreed and wanted their interests represented separately in court. > > . Each owner of a copyright interest has the right to license a work without the permission of other owners. So If Huckabee had needed a license, he could have gotten one from just one of the four. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/28 "2016-07-27T10:42:18Z")
Of course, even if the legal theories the artists are citing don’t pan out, they can still appeal to a higher court, the court of public opinion. That’s a court which is both much more favorable to the artists, and which can impose greater consequences on the politicians. That’s the real reason why politicians usually settle these cases quickly out of court. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/29 "2016-07-27T10:57:37Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Whatever the legal position, it’s not exactly good PR to be caught out employing people who are so careless and disorganised as not to have checked whether they were going to risk such a fuss in the first place, is it? > [@Chronos](#): > > Of course, even if the legal theories the artists are citing don’t pan out, they can still appeal to a higher court, the court of public opinion. That’s a court which is both much more favorable to the artists, and which can impose greater consequences on the politicians. That’s the real reason why politicians usually settle these cases quickly out of court. That is of course assuming that the politician isn’t running a badboy/badgirl campaign where he or she wants to show the country that he/she won’t back down under pressure. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/30 "2016-07-27T12:24:39Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > That is of course assuming that the politician isn’t running a badboy/badgirl campaign where he or she wants to show the country that he/she won’t back down under pressure. Tom Petty wants a word with you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/31 "2016-07-27T14:25:42Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How could anyone believe that Heart (whoever they are individually, if they are even still alive) wrote this song nearly 20 years earlier in the hopes that Palin would come along so as to endorse her? It would seem to be a particularly dense person who believed that the playing of that song meant that the band Heart officially endorsed McCain/Palin 2008. They don’t. The argument is that the public tends to assume that the artist must’ve given permission for the song to be used. This perception increases the more the message matches the campaign. It’s not about what the song meant when it was written. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/32 "2016-07-27T16:08:42Z")
One other thing to remember is that is the blanket license for a venue or promoter does not include synchronization (sync) rights - the right to perform the work in conjunction with video. So that right is another area of possible standing for artists or rights holders to argue from. Note that in this case, it is the producer of the motion picture or video program that bears the onus of rights clearance, so perhaps this is a different angle of attack to protect artist/songwriter IP. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/33 "2016-07-28T04:39:41Z")
I imagine now a Trump commercial with him wearing a red windbreaker (to show he’s just a normal guy) walking down the center of a city street with his wife hugging on his arm and Bob Dylan singing “The Times They Are A’Changing” isn’t going to be happening. Or at least isn’t going to be aired for long. “Get Together” probably won’t fly either. Or “For What It’s Worth.” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/34 "2016-07-28T05:54:30Z")
I don’t know the answer to the OP, but I will note that Rush Limbaugh has been using The Pretender’s _My City Was Gone_ as his bumper music for decades. I doubt that they are happy about it, which makes me think that an artist has little control over how their music is used once it is published. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/35 "2016-07-28T06:06:07Z")
Broadcast radio is different. One of the tricky aspects of broadcast IP rights is that there are different rules and considerations depending on the type of broadcast media and programming. Terrestrial broadcast radio mandates statutory rates of compensation to the songwriters for the pub rights, but once a specific work has been released to radio any broadcaster can use it in the course of normal programming provided all usage is reported to the relevant PRO and other tracking companies. Note this does not apply to streaming, digital or satellite, only terrestrial OTA (over the air) . It also does not affect the master use (sound recording) rights nor permit theatrical or sync usages without additional grant of license. Mechanical licenses are also not included in this, of course, as they cover mechanical reproduction of a composition for sale, not broadcast. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/36 "2016-07-29T16:39:10Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Whatever the legal position, it’s not exactly good PR to be caught out employing people who are so careless and disorganised as not to have checked whether they were going to risk such a fuss in the first place, is it? Sure, but if you’re a Republican candidate asking for the artist’s permission basically limits you to playing Hootie or Ted Nugent songs. ---
**Author:** ![turner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@turner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/37 "2016-07-29T16:50:09Z")
Question re: fair use. Let’s say a stripper is doing an audition and plays “Eye of the Tiger”. She is not getting remuneration, she’s auditioning for a potential future job. Is this fair use or should she have to pay for the rights to use the song? If fair use, why is it not the same for political candidates? If not, should copyright attorneys hang out at music schools in the hopes of suing potential scholarship winners who audition using songs in their stable? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/38 "2016-07-29T18:10:42Z")
> [@turner](#): > > Question re: fair use. Let’s say a stripper is doing an audition and plays “Eye of the Tiger”. She is not getting remuneration, she’s auditioning for a potential future job. Is this fair use or should she have to pay for the rights to use the song? If fair use, why is it not the same for political candidates? If not, should copyright attorneys hang out at music schools in the hopes of suing potential scholarship winners who audition using songs in their stable? Fair use is a copyright concept. I don’t think you can properly apply it to music licensing rights. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/39 "2016-07-29T23:15:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Fair use is a copyright concept. I don’t think you can properly apply it to music licensing rights. Music licensing rights derive from copyright. If it weren’t for the copyright law, there would be nothing to license. The copyright law gives the owners of music the exclusive right to use the music in certain ways. The copyright owner (or its successor or assignee) then grants a license that gives the licensee permission to use the music in a way that the law allows the owner to control. “Fair use” is an exception written into the copyright law that takes away the right of the owner of the work to control its use in certain circumstances. If the owner does not have the right to control the contemplated use of the music, there is no need to obtain a license. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968/40 "2016-07-29T23:40:02Z")
> [@turner](#): > > Question re: fair use. Let’s say a stripper is doing an audition and plays “Eye of the Tiger”. She is not getting remuneration, she’s auditioning for a potential future job. Is this fair use or should she have to pay for the rights to use the song? If fair use, why is it not the same for political candidates? If not, should copyright attorneys hang out at music schools in the hopes of suing potential scholarship winners who audition using songs in their stable? The way most normal strip clubs operate, they would probably already have blanket licenses from the Peformance Rights Organizations (PROs) to perform music at their venues. Any stripper who wanted to perform an audition to a licensed song at the venue would be covered by that license. The political parties rent convention halls for their conventions. In order to be allowed to perform copyrighted musical works at their hall, the owners/operators of the hall must make sure it is licensed. Most music schools have some sort of public performances or recitals. It is likely that they already have blanket licenses. But if they don’t, there is the question of whether an audition is a public performance. If it is, there is always 17 USC 110(4) that might apply: > [@](#): > > Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, the following are not infringements of copyright: > … > > (4) performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work otherwise than in a transmission to the public, without any purpose of direct or indirect commercial advantage and without payment of any fee or other compensation for the performance to any of its performers, promoters, or organizers, if— > (A) there is no direct or indirect admission charge; or > (B) the proceeds, after deducting the reasonable costs of producing the performance, are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes and not for private financial gain, except where the copyright owner has served notice of objection to the performance under the following conditions: > (i) the notice shall be in writing and signed by the copyright owner or such owner’s duly authorized agent; and > (ii) the notice shall be served on the person responsible for the performance at least seven days before the date of the performance, and shall state the reasons for the objection; and > (iii) the notice shall comply, in form, content, and manner of service, with requirements that the Register of Copyrights shall prescribe by regulation; [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-permission-required-from-musicians-for-political-rallies/760968.md?page=3)